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contradicting data on crits and blocks

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contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Conaan! » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:49 pm

The first sample i had (never took a photo of) was pre-nerf juggernaut, 100% crit chance on your next MS/Slam after a charge, sometimes MS/Slam would do normal damage even though i had juggernaut buff, and i found out, that it was because my attacks were being blocked by the damn dogs

now running in zangar, i encountered something strange:
Image

this image shows:
Salmin's Victory Rush hits Ango'rosh Ogre for 838 physical damage (46 blocked) (critical)

which contradicts my previous sample of juggernaut 100% crit chance (plus the 15% i already had) being nullified by block

sooo, ideas?
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby amh » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:47 am

Players can crit through blocks, npcs can´t.
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby culhag » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:58 am

Yep. That's the "two roll" system that's in effect for player abilities.

Crit is rolled separately from the rest, so you can block a player's crit.
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Conaan! » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:04 am

EDIT: wait, but that still doesnt explain it all, juggernaut with 100% crit chance MS would still not crit if it got blocked, if i could crit through block, then those attacks would have been crits not normal, and i wouldnt have even bothered to post here
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby amh » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:09 am

/shrug, dunno. Are you entirely sure that they weren´t crits? Unless you were paying attention to your combat-log, a blocked crit can look pretty much like a big normal hit in terms of damage done.
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Conaan! » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:58 am

amh wrote:/shrug, dunno. Are you entirely sure that they weren´t crits? Unless you were paying attention to your combat-log, a blocked crit can look pretty much like a big normal hit in terms of damage done.


i checked combat log, it happened alot the first day i got the talent, and i was confused as to why my guranteed crits werent happening, after having it happen again i checked combat log, normal MS damage but blocked
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Candiru » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:01 am

If the mob is a higher level than you you might not have 100% crit chance? Or do they do a debuff which makes you have lower crit chance?

Special attacks should be rolled for crit separately from block/miss/parry etc though. odd.
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Conaan! » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:14 am

Candiru wrote:If the mob is a higher level than you you might not have 100% crit chance? Or do they do a debuff which makes you have lower crit chance?

Special attacks should be rolled for crit separately from block/miss/parry etc though. odd.



for example, in hellfire peninsula i attacked a 61 mob as lvl 60, thats like what, .3% difference? and its 100% crit added to your crit, which at that level was like 15-17%

and for the reference the mob was a helboar (or however its spelled), as though dogs are my most recent remembrance of juggernaut not working
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:58 pm

Player attacks use a two roll system. Hit/crit is determined separately from location on the combat table. The reason you can fail to crit at 100% crit chance is that, for whatever reason, some mobs reduce the chance that you'll crit them by more than you might expect. One significant factor is your weapon skill here: was it maxed?
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Conaan! » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:00 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Player attacks use a two roll system. Hit/crit is determined separately from location on the combat table. The reason you can fail to crit at 100% crit chance is that, for whatever reason, some mobs reduce the chance that you'll crit them by more than you might expect. One significant factor is your weapon skill here: was it maxed?



it was maxed, and even if it wasnt, a difference of 5 skill is not enough to reduce the 115% crit chance (possibly 117%) below 100%, or explain why it was so frequent and only came when my attack was blocked
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:04 pm

As far as I or anyone else can explain, blocks and crits are unrelated in player attacks. It's a coincidence. I can't explain what's causing a lowered % crit, but I can tell you that that's what's happening.
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby QuantumDelta » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:49 am

Panzerdin is quite right, I did some testing produced a couple screenshots and a little maths on this when I started tanking (t4 content), I was still a lurker here back then, and I never transcribed it onto the tankadin forums, but you might be able to find it on the EU forums.


Basically any blocked attack cannot crit.

A forced crit shows up in the combat log as a crit no matter what damage it does.
Defensive rolls take precedence over offensive rolls for the purpose of damage.
Players have a completely disjointed 2 roll system for their attacks and their crits, normally this system doesn't conflict even though it's entirely independent because crits fade into missed/dodged/parried attacks, and crits that are absorbed by blocks, the combat log will translate a blocked crit into a full block, but for some reason forced crits over-ride that formatting.

It's just a display error, it shouldn't say 'crit' there, but you basically are getting resistance from the mobs defensive stats.
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Conaan! » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:18 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:Panzerdin is quite right, I did some testing produced a couple screenshots and a little maths on this when I started tanking (t4 content), I was still a lurker here back then, and I never transcribed it onto the tankadin forums, but you might be able to find it on the EU forums.


Basically any blocked attack cannot crit.

A forced crit shows up in the combat log as a crit no matter what damage it does.
Defensive rolls take precedence over offensive rolls for the purpose of damage.
Players have a completely disjointed 2 roll system for their attacks and their crits, normally this system doesn't conflict even though it's entirely independent because crits fade into missed/dodged/parried attacks, and crits that are absorbed by blocks, the combat log will translate a blocked crit into a full block, but for some reason forced crits over-ride that formatting.

It's just a display error, it shouldn't say 'crit' there, but you basically are getting resistance from the mobs defensive stats.


so what you are saying is that the victory rush crit through block was a fluke?
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby QuantumDelta » Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:45 pm

Well lots of funky stuff has been seen with the combat log but I was just talking about forced crits, dunno if that applies to VR, haven't played a warrior since early-mid TBC ;p

Plenty of people have reported seeing themselves taking crushings from mobs that has actually turned out to be a crit on closer inspection, so the log is a bit skewed sometimes.
If it's not a forced crit, I'm not sure, but it definitely wouldn't be 'normal', from all the experiments I did, against both players and PvE targets on my rogue/pally, it was very clear that blocked crits only applied to forced crits.
The experiments are still repeatable today if you have the patience for it, vs same-level-mobs is best, but if you have the patience to get a large enough sample size you can use the mobs in the blasted lands.
Haven't used a training dummy in a long long time, don't remember if they 'block'.
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Re: contradicting data on crits and blocks

Postby Conaan! » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:40 pm

there is no forced crit on VR, VR has same crit chance as everything else, the forced crit was juggernaut with MS, which would get blocked and wouldnt crit

well, i think ill go report this and see if i can get an explanation from a GM, probally not, but worth a shot
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