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So when does block become at all useful?

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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:51 am

Block Value would be a lot more appealing if it didn't almost always come with Block Rating. It does add some mitigation but the problem is that to get that mitigation you have to waste a ton of item points the block rating that accompanies it.

For example, if some of the Ulduar Expertise gear, had BV instead we wouldn't avoid it as much.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Jonesy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:03 am

Block value is a terrible mitigation stat, really, it's only twice as good as agility at the level you're talking at (24k hits on 35k armour).
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:09 am

Jonesy wrote:Block value is a terrible mitigation stat, really, it's only twice as good as agility at the level you're talking at (24k hits on 35k armour).


But 1 BV is only "costs" 0.65 item points, whereas agility (or expertise) costs 1. It obviously won't be an idea stat, but neither is something like parry. I'm not saying BV is great or anything, just that block gear would not be quite as terrible for us if it wasn't loaded with wasted itemization on block rating.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:17 am

Jasari wrote:Block Value would be a lot more appealing if it didn't almost always come with Block Rating. It does add some mitigation but the problem is that to get that mitigation you have to waste a ton of item points the block rating that accompanies it.

For example, if some of the Ulduar Expertise gear, had BV instead we wouldn't avoid it as much.

It would probably provide more mitigation if it was itemized as extra armor, at least against raid bosses. If you think about it, a rather sizable portion of our block value comes from talents, the built in BV on our shield, and Strength. There's enough from that to make it so that the extra little bit you get on gear doesn't matter much.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Jonesy » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:02 pm

Jasari wrote:
Jonesy wrote:Block value is a terrible mitigation stat, really, it's only twice as good as agility at the level you're talking at (24k hits on 35k armour).


But 1 BV is only "costs" 0.65 item points, whereas agility (or expertise) costs 1. It obviously won't be an idea stat, but neither is something like parry. I'm not saying BV is great or anything, just that block gear would not be quite as terrible for us if it wasn't loaded with wasted itemization on block rating.


No, even accounting for that.

http://rehfeld.us/wow/armor-vs-block.html

35k armour, 24k hit, 100 armour = 46.4 BV.

After talents, blocking for 46.4 requires 23.2 stat points (46.4 / 1.3 / 0.65). 23.2 stat points spent on agility will give you 51.04 armour (remember kings). So it's a little worse than twice as good. It's a terrible stat in pretty much every way for boss tanking.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby towelliee » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:15 am

Well least I found out BV and BR gear helps me out in 2v2 and 3v3 arenas w00t w00t
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Bundy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:16 am

I have an easy fix for block. Make it block for a percentage of incoming damage instead of a raw amount. That way it scales evenly with everything. But of course there should be a cap, maybe somewhere between 50-60% ? Armor reduces damage by a percentage, why not block too? Everyone starts off blocking 25% normal, and every 50 BV is another percent.

Thinking about it evens it out nicely between warriors and palys. Palys would block most of the time, while warriors would have a chance to block for double but alot less of the time. I mean your avg paly has about 50-55% chance to block with HS up right? Warriors have like 20-25% chance. But then again with Shield Block it would be like a second Shield wall if you had high enough value. Its something to think about at least though.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Racolus » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:16 pm

BV is great and useful for threat gen, our ShoR relies heavily on it.

Isn't it fun to see something persumed to be 'defense stat' turns out to be 'offense stat'?

Threat wise +100 BV is ALOT, block-wise it is just another meh.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Engarde » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:55 pm

I, personally, have found no use for Block Rating as a tank. Assuming Mark/Kings/HoW or SoE, I have 29% Dodge, 19% Parry, 13% Block, 545 Defense and 41k HP with Fort, food and flask. My block value in 4/5 8.5 and 8.0 Shoulders is 1244 without Libram or the 4 set proc and I do just fine when the guild needs me to take over MT spot.

You definitely want Block Value on your gear for threat-heavy fights like Hodir Hard, but you can avoid Block Rating imo because it's only useful on fast but weak bosses and trash. Sometimes I don't even Holy Shield just to make it easier for RNG to hit my 30% Dodge, which was something debateable that I brought up with one of our guild officers and we're currently discussing in a think tank on our guild forums.

Don't get me wrong, I do Holy Shield, but it's the last thing I want to do. With dps pushing 7k on normal bosses and the rest of them between 5-6k, I'm much more reluctant to blow the GCD for Holy Shield over hitting yet another threat ability. Right now, none of the tanks in my guild touch paladin threat, and this is not just the Hodir fight. My main concern is keeping threat off of the locks and mages that we have pouring threat out through their eyeballs, at least until Invis and Shatter are fixed in 3.2 :)

Figure it this way, I can tank General without even touching Holy Shield and minimize threat issues throughout the entire fight. Blocking 2.1k dmg on a spike will not save me when there's a rolling Rejuv, disc bubbles, sacred shield, 2 Dodge trinkets, Scorpid or IS glyph, Sanc and other mitigation effects. I can survive two full hits from General's normal melee swing before dying (45k hp full raid buff and 28k armor before Inspiration) without a problem. Healers on me would be using the exact same heals as they would if I did Block the damage, and my dps can go balls out...

Formulate your own conclusions, but I say they just get rid of Holy Shield and give us a more useful cooldown (Redoubt is enough, just make it passive already, jerks...)
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby Lolpaladins » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:01 pm

No offense, but I think you need to spend some more time reading the "basic training" section of this site. A well-written post, to be sure, you seem intelligent, but your post is filled with alot of wrong information.

Engarde wrote:Sometimes I don't even Holy Shield just to make it easier for RNG to hit my 30% Dodge, which was something debateable that I brought up with one of our guild officers and we're currently discussing in a think tank on our guild forums.


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15212
Maintankadin 101 - Scroll down to "the attack table"
Hitting Holy shield does not reduce your chance to dodge. I would suggest that you listen to whoever is trying to "debate" you on your guild forum.

Don't get me wrong, I do Holy Shield, but it's the last thing I want to do. With dps pushing 7k on normal bosses and the rest of them between 5-6k, I'm much more reluctant to blow the GCD for Holy Shield over hitting yet another threat ability.


With a proper 969696 rotation you can hit Holy Shield on every single cooldown - Holy Shield IS a threat ability, it will be providing you with a decent chunk of your threat on every fight, more threat than either exorcism or judgement. And well, that doesn't leave too many other "9" abilities to swap in.

Figure it this way, I can tank General without even touching Holy Shield and minimize threat issues throughout the entire fight. Blocking 2.1k dmg on a spike will not save me when there's a rolling Rejuv, disc bubbles, sacred shield, 2 Dodge trinkets, Scorpid or IS glyph, Sanc and other mitigation effects. I can survive two full hits from General's normal melee swing before dying (45k hp full raid buff and 28k armor before Inspiration) without a problem. Healers on me would be using the exact same heals as they would if I did Block the damage, and my dps can go balls out...

Formulate your own conclusions, but I say they just get rid of Holy Shield and give us a more useful cooldown (Redoubt is enough, just make it passive already, jerks...)
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby trellian » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:37 am

Lolpaladins wrote:Holy Shield IS a threat ability, it will be providing you with a decent chunk of your threat on every fight, more threat than either exorcism or judgement. And well, that doesn't leave too many other "9" abilities to swap in.


Make sure that if you correct someone that you do it properly. Substituting HS for exorcism (or AS) -is- a threat gain.
You will never want to do it if you're being a sane paladin. However, it is a threat upgrade.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:43 am

trellian wrote:
Lolpaladins wrote:Holy Shield IS a threat ability, it will be providing you with a decent chunk of your threat on every fight, more threat than either exorcism or judgement. And well, that doesn't leave too many other "9" abilities to swap in.


Make sure that if you correct someone that you do it properly. Substituting HS for exorcism (or AS) -is- a threat gain.
You will never want to do it if you're being a sane paladin. However, it is a threat upgrade.

It's pretty nice when you want to keep second threat on Thorim.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby majiben » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:58 am

If you're not tanking him at the moment you shouldn't be using HS during that time unless it's less than 9 seconds till the switch.
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby trellian » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:18 am

because of LoSS you probably do want to keep HS up. (he was talking about general btw)

but ye, offtanking makes for a totally different scenario
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Re: So when does block become at all useful?

Postby TokenElf » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:41 am

I put my block set on in heroics. My threat is insane, I bore healers except on bosses (even then they get anstsy and dps) and we crush the things fast.

That's about the only use for it.


If they had made block a doubled because of Str being 1 = 1BV and the block value on shields being increased, it might have been worth it. As it stands, it is still going to be when I am not tanking anything serious.
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