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So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

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So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Girard » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:16 am

Things that won't make us over powered, but by the same token fixes some broken talents.


Changes I propose:
1) Change our block formula. 20str/10int = 1 Block.
2) Change Redoubt to a 2/4/6/8/10% flat block increase.
3) Change Shield Spec to 15/30/45% block value increase
4) Maybe add to Precision a 1/2/3% spell hit it (see #7 below)
5) Remove Stoicism and Improved Concentration Aura, the former belongs in Ret, the latter belongs in Holy.
6) Spellwarding should be 3/6%
7) Sacred Duty's bonus to stamina is fine (maybe up it to 4/8%) but the decrease on the cooldown to Bubble is well.. situationally useful at best. Change it to reduce the cooldown on Avenging Wrath would be much better, or even giving us +spellhit here would be nice, since none of our gear has any.
8 ) Either fix weapon skill or nix Weapon Expertise.
9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%
10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.

Any other suggestions?
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Madmordigan » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:37 am

Girard wrote:9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%


Why reduce parry to 3% from 3 points?
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Vanifae » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:38 am

Madmordigan wrote:
Girard wrote:9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%


Why reduce parry to 3% from 3 points?

He is afraid of insane crazy Parry spike damage.
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Postby Pizbit » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:40 am

and 'cause he doesn't want the not-so-well geared to hit uncrushable as easily.:)

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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Vanifae » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:51 am

Girard wrote:Things that won't make us over powered, but by the same token fixes some broken talents.


Changes I propose:
1) Change our block formula. 20str/10int = 1 Block.
2) Change Redoubt to a 2/4/6/8/10% flat block increase.
3) Change Shield Spec to 15/30/45% block value increase
4) Maybe add to Precision a 1/2/3% spell hit it (see #7 below)
5) Remove Stoicism and Improved Concentration Aura, the former belongs in Ret, the latter belongs in Holy.
6) Spellwarding should be 3/6%
7) Sacred Duty's bonus to stamina is fine (maybe up it to 4/8%) but the decrease on the cooldown to Bubble is well.. situationally useful at best. Change it to reduce the cooldown on Avenging Wrath would be much better, or even giving us +spellhit here would be nice, since none of our gear has any.
8 ) Either fix weapon skill or nix Weapon Expertise.
9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%
10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.

Any other suggestions?


1. That would make INT worthwhile, I think allowing us a way to convert some Black Value into Threat would be awesome as well.

2. Rather see Redoubt cap out at 5% and still maintain the proc, it is useful for AoE situations which is one of our strong points.

3. Not sure about this.

4. Spell Hit is good, so yeah I like this.

5. I don't agree here, sometimes it is good for cross tree utilization to have some talents in one tree as opposed to another.

6. No Comment

7. I am not sure what I would change here.

8. My vote is to just nix it.

9. Deflection is fine as is.

10. I could get behind this.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Belarkan » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:19 am

Girard wrote:1) Change our block formula. 20str/10int = 1 Block.


I was thinking about spell damage increasing block rather than int, since strength increases block value and threat.
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Postby Agravaine » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:04 am

Changes I propose:
1) Change our block formula. 20str/10int = 1 Block.
2) Change Redoubt to a 2/4/6/8/10% flat block increase.
3) Change Shield Spec to 15/30/45% block value increase
4) Maybe add to Precision a 1/2/3% spell hit it (see #7 below)
5) Remove Stoicism and Improved Concentration Aura, the former belongs in Ret, the latter belongs in Holy.
6) Spellwarding should be 3/6%
7) Sacred Duty's bonus to stamina is fine (maybe up it to 4/8%) but the decrease on the cooldown to Bubble is well.. situationally useful at best. Change it to reduce the cooldown on Avenging Wrath would be much better, or even giving us +spellhit here would be nice, since none of our gear has any.
8 ) Either fix weapon skill or nix Weapon Expertise.
9) Reduce Parry to a 3pt talent 1/2/3%
10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction


(1) No. INT is pointless and if we are going to get anything from INT, I'd prefer it be block rating. That would help us put our gear more in line with generic tank gear.

(2) No. 5% base block, + 25% proc block

(3) Yes.

(4) Yes.

(5) Don't care either way

(6) Ok.

(7) More stamina please. I don't mind the cooldown on bubble, it is more helpful than you think, IMHO.

(8) I'm not that impressed with WepX either.

(9) No, make it 2%, 4%, 6% and 3 pts.

(10) Vengance? or Vindication?
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Brute » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:35 am

Girard wrote:10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.

Any other suggestions?


Assuming you mean vindication, I would say go for a revamp such as:

Vindication (1 point): When you deal holy damage to a target, gives chance to slow target's attack speed by 10% and attack power by 35/55/70/105/140/220/300 (7 ranks)
Improved Vindication (2 talent points): Increases slowing effect by 50/100% and attack power reduction by 20/40%

Yes, this is thunderclap and demo shout thrown into one weapon proc, using 3 talent points, so its probably OP as I put it, but I think it would be neato nonetheless. Perhaps reduce the AP reduction to somethin along the lines of what bears have or reduce/remove the slowing effect.

Something must be done to give this spot on the talent tree some use. Its totally worthless as I see it, as the debuff isn't that meaningful in PVP and mobs don't have str/agi as far as I've heard.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby adese » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:20 am

Brute wrote:
Girard wrote:10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.

Any other suggestions?


Assuming you mean vindication, I would say go for a revamp such as:

Vindication (1 point): When you deal holy damage to a target, gives chance to slow target's attack speed by 10% and attack power by 35/55/70/105/140/220/300 (7 ranks)
Improved Vindication (2 talent points): Increases slowing effect by 50/100% and attack power reduction by 20/40%

Yes, this is thunderclap and demo shout thrown into one weapon proc, using 3 talent points, so its probably OP as I put it, but I think it would be neato nonetheless. Perhaps reduce the AP reduction to somethin along the lines of what bears have or reduce/remove the slowing effect.


The major downside to the attack speed debuff is that hurts out threat generation - the boss attacks us less, therefore we block less, therefore we generate less threat from Holy Shield.

I think if Vindication would just work on bosses by decreasing the amount of damage they do (rather than the speed they do it at), I would be fine with it.

Also - I don't really like the idea of a 7 point talent. Our talent points are spread thing enough as-is, IMO.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Thorgrym » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:36 am

adese wrote:
Brute wrote:
Girard wrote:10) Make vengeance apply to all mobs with a 3/6/10% reduction.

Any other suggestions?


Assuming you mean vindication, I would say go for a revamp such as:

Vindication (1 point): When you deal holy damage to a target, gives chance to slow target's attack speed by 10% and attack power by 35/55/70/105/140/220/300 (7 ranks)
Improved Vindication (2 talent points): Increases slowing effect by 50/100% and attack power reduction by 20/40%

Yes, this is thunderclap and demo shout thrown into one weapon proc, using 3 talent points, so its probably OP as I put it, but I think it would be neato nonetheless. Perhaps reduce the AP reduction to somethin along the lines of what bears have or reduce/remove the slowing effect.


The major downside to the attack speed debuff is that hurts out threat generation - the boss attacks us less, therefore we block less, therefore we generate less threat from Holy Shield.

I think if Vindication would just work on bosses by decreasing the amount of damage they do (rather than the speed they do it at), I would be fine with it.

Also - I don't really like the idea of a 7 point talent. Our talent points are spread thing enough as-is, IMO.


Vinidication as posted was meant as a 2 talent point system, the ranks mentioned were trainable from a skils trainerr if I am interpreting this correctly.

I personally would not like to see deflection changed from its current incarnation.

Redoubt with a flat 5% bonus would be better suited to lower geared tanks just starting out, and would make it more useful overall in reachign the uncrushable mark. Just be sure to add the other 25% as a proc.

Spell shield change mentioned would be great.

Weapon expertise, please remove.

Boosting spell warding would be helpful, but possibly OP.

Spell hit to precision would be a great help to us.

Block formula change mentioned could be great. I dont see many paladin tanks with an insane amount of int (unless in a high threat gear set) so I do not think this would be OP and would serve us well overall. It would also help holy paladins to take a bit more of a beating (or prevent it) improving 2 talent trees if they took this.

Im indifferent to stoicism and improved concentration aura. I dont use either very often at all, other then for 5v5 to get my spell damage hammer and I spec holy *spit*

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Postby Mavrix » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:37 am

BV, armor, or HP from INT would be great and would go a long way toward fixing gaps.

Spell warding should do more than it does. (Really RF should too.)

Spell hit would be quite helpful on precision.

Sacred duty should give more stam boost than it does.

Don't care about vengeance.

I'd really like to see Shield Specialization be a stand-alone talent and redoubt be a stand-alone talent regardless of any other changes to either so that people can choose one or the other or both. I personally would love my talent points back from redoubt to put into something else (even imp devo aura would be better to me for my playstyle).
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Brute » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:38 am

Thorgrym wrote:Vinidication as posted was meant as a 2 talent point system, the ranks mentioned were trainable from a skils trainerr if I am interpreting this correctly.

It was meant to look like holy shield or nature's grasp, where you train the original skill then improve it laterally. 3 talent points overall.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Thorgrym » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:01 pm

Brute wrote:
Thorgrym wrote:Vinidication as posted was meant as a 2 talent point system, the ranks mentioned were trainable from a skils trainerr if I am interpreting this correctly.

It was meant to look like holy shield or nature's grasp, where you train the original skill then improve it laterally. 3 talent points overall.


My mistake, thanks for clarification.

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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby Brute » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:26 pm

adese wrote:The major downside to the attack speed debuff is that hurts out threat generation - the boss attacks us less, therefore we block less, therefore we generate less threat from Holy Shield.

I think if Vindication would just work on bosses by decreasing the amount of damage they do (rather than the speed they do it at), I would be fine with it.

Also - I don't really like the idea of a 7 point talent. Our talent points are spread thing enough as-is, IMO.


I've never had a problem losing agro with competent DPS'ers and I play with some pretty crazy mages who like to push hard. ("ready or not, here comes pom-pyro!") You really think a -20 haste effect would gimp us that much in threat gen? I know it would sure help out the healers.

Of course, this whole idea is just wishful thinking. They'll probably just leave that spot dead on the talent tree forever.
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Re: So. Logical, balanced changes to our class?

Postby adese » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:55 pm

Brute wrote:
adese wrote:The major downside to the attack speed debuff is that hurts out threat generation - the boss attacks us less, therefore we block less, therefore we generate less threat from Holy Shield.

I think if Vindication would just work on bosses by decreasing the amount of damage they do (rather than the speed they do it at), I would be fine with it.

Also - I don't really like the idea of a 7 point talent. Our talent points are spread thing enough as-is, IMO.


I've never had a problem losing agro with competent DPS'ers and I play with some pretty crazy mages who like to push hard. ("ready or not, here comes pom-pyro!") You really think a -20 haste effect would gimp us that much in threat gen? I know it would sure help out the healers.

Of course, this whole idea is just wishful thinking. They'll probably just leave that spot dead on the talent tree forever.


Honestly - I'm not sure. Probably not, considering that I don't notice it when Thunderclap is down. However, given that we are designing a better version of Vindication, why not go for one that's perfect instead of mostly perfect? :)
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