Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

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Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Karaghiosis » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:46 pm

I've heard some rumors that the infinite absorbtion from using bubble or HoP with Divine Sac no longer works.
After messing around with some hard modes I'm interested in seeing what other tricks are available but it's important that they actually are working as intended. Here is my current understanding of both spells:

Hand of Sacrifice: 30% dmg transfer from one target to you (talented 40%)
After 100% of paladin's health has been redirected, this ability stops functioning. Without other damage, one heal will keep you alive. Damage redirected keeps its form (magic stays magic, physical stays physical for purposes of bubble interaction). Damage reduction does not work (sanctuary, divine plea (glyph), armor, RF, etc) additional absorbtion does work (sacred shield, etc). Bubble does NOT remove the damage redirection cap. Effect stacks with other cooldowns, shield wall, etc but does not stack with other HoSac or Divine Sac.

Divine Sacrifice: 30% raid dmg transferred to you (talented 40%)
After 150% of damage has been taken by paladin, this ability stops functioning. Damage redirected keeps its form (magic stays magic, physical stays physical for purposes of bubble interaction). Damage reduction does not work (sanctuary, divine plea (glyph), armor, RF, etc) additional absorbtion does work (sacred shield, etc). Bubble DOES remove the damage redirection cap thus allowing for very efficient use on Tantrum/frozen blows, etc. Effect stacks with other cooldowns, shield wall, etc but does not stack with other Divine Sac or HoSac.

Very similar spells, difference in damage redirected 100% -> 150% but possible difference in bubble interaction regarding the maximum damage redirected.

Initial reports were clearly showing absorption > 150% paladin life
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t55577-holy ... _3_1_a/p7/

Additionally, there have been some reports (dont have link) on this site saying the 150% limit is a per absorption basis. This does not appear to be the case but it's still worth raising.

Conclusion:
What are the mechcanics of the two spells in the current game. Recent patch (3.1.2 not today's) may have tweaked/fixed what was being done previously.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Kracus » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:29 am

this ability stops functioningp


Goody gumdrops, I've been lookin at this more closely for the last week myself. Last night I had a brief discussion with our 2 ret pallies about these two abilities for General's "I'm going to actually hit you now" buff gain. During our last run on him, I died and I was trying to figure out why. I came to the conclusion after running through the log that maybe Divine Sacrifice stopped functioning too soon because it was absorbing raid damage, not just my damage so I wanted them to start using hand of sac instead for specific tank save events.

I think the conversation got a bit confused and I didn't want to drag on because we lost an entire raid night to the server crap on Tuesday and wanted to keep moving.

And to my understanding, these abilities have a cap on the amount of damage they'll absorb regardless of the duration. I'm starting to rethink this after digging a bit deeper into the combat log. The log showed that DS stayed up for 10 secs and I keep coming to different realization and I'm just hoping someone has done the work on this to get some feedback. Cause now that I went back and looked at it again, on XT-002 last night, they popped it and I only received one entry in the combat log on absorption (but that could be that I dodged/parried/missed a bunch of his attacks).

Just to clarify, my basic question in a situation like General's damage buff or first phase of Mimiron with his focused laser beam on the tank, which is better to use? Which redirects the most damage? HoS or DS? and why?
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Kracus » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:00 am

Now I'm just getting more weirded out:

found this:
http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... ce#p417495

And was comforted by that, but really not actual data. Then I go back to the first log I looked at that started this for me:

Code: Select all
6.578   Bethak gains Divine Sacrifice.   #238634
  0:01'06.578   Bethak's Sacred Shield is refreshed.   #238640
  0:01'06.921   General Vezax melee swing hits Bethak for 41908 Physical. (1323 Blocked) (2347 Absorbed)

   0:01'11.328   General Vezax melee swing hits Bethak for 30468 Physical. (1781 Blocked) (13058 Absorbed)   #239248

   0:01'12.937   General Vezax melee swing hits Bethak for 47799 Physical. (1781 Blocked) (2912 Absorbed)   #239450

I'm missing something and it is annoying me :(
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Karaghiosis » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:31 pm

Anecdotal evidence:
I was working on Mimiron hardmode, 10 man and using Divine Sac/Divine shield on the tank for plasma blast but tank died a couple times particularly when the damage absorb stopped taking effect. I believe this was due to a cap on the damage absorbed but I dont have WWS from it. Using hand of sacrifice did better because it wasnt picking up the raid damage from fire/napalm around the room.
0's floated over my head the entire duration, and the tank was in aura range and definitely had the buff. I'm leaning more towards the "divine sac is now capped regardless of bubble".

Does anyone have any contradicting experiences/current WWS reports. I say current because I believe this change may have happened in the past two weeks.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Jasari » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:09 pm

Karaghiosis wrote:Does anyone have any contradicting experiences/current WWS reports. I say current because I believe this change may have happened in the past two weeks.


If there was a change, it probably would have been with the patch. I forgot to upload our combat log from Wednesday's raid where I'm sure Divine Sac/Shield was used at least once but I'll do that when I get home from work and see if I can find any conclusive evidence one way or the other.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Dazhbog » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:19 pm

So far as I know, both spells redirect x% from all of their targets (the target you cast it on in the case of HoSac, everyone within 30 yards of you in the case of DSac) until a certain amount of damage is redirected, at which point the redirect stops functions, although the buffs don't disappear from you/your target. If you can be certain that only one person (the tank) within 30 yards of you is taking damage, DSac will redirect more damage away from him. However, if a lot of people within 30 yards are taking damage, there is the potential to redirect less damage from the one person then if you cast HoSac on them. Exact numbers depend on how many people are taking how much damage within 30 yards of you.

Am I misunderstanding the question?
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Kracus » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:00 am

Dazhbog wrote:Am I misunderstanding the question?

For me, I have people that disagree with what you just said and I'm looking for numbers as well to get a better handle for explanation one way or the other. I believe it works as you said though.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Karaghiosis » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:19 am

two things:
1) hand of sac can be talented up to 40% similar to Divine sac being talented up to 40%.
2) HoSac is limited to 100% of your health, Divine Sac to 150%

When 3.1 was launched, the ability clearly had interaction with Divine Shield to essentially remove the limitation on total damage absorbed. At that time there was confusion on whether or not the 150% limitation was a "per hit" or total damage. I believe the limitation is now agreed to be on total damage.

Recently, I've been noticing that Divine Sac and Hand of Sac seem to stop functioning even when Divine Shield is still active goes against the previous evidence that the limitation is damage taken (not including that absorbed).

The question here is- Does anyone have any WWS(or similar) reports showing either Divine Sac/Hand of Sac ceasing to function due to the damage limitation being reached OR Divine Sac/Hand of Sac absorbing more than the limitation (disproving)?
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Kracus » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:47 am

I got some logs from last night for Hand of Sac, I didn't speak up soon enough to get the other pally to use DS. I'm still shifting through for DS at the moment cause it was used just not in the case I was looking for (single target hard hitting burst damage ie mimi/General)

Code: Select all
  1:22'37.369   Bethak gains Hand of Sacrifice.
  1:22'37.784   Bethak suffers 16935 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast. (7258 Absorbed)   
  1:22'38.248   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Nevare.
  1:22'38.866   Bethak suffers 16935 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast. (7258 Absorbed)
  1:22'38.866   Leviathan Mk II #1 melee swing hits Bethak for 6953 Physical. (1336 Blocked) (2980 Absorbed)
  1:22'38.977   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Nevare.
  1:22'39.319   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Nevare.
  1:22'39.865   Nevare Hand of Sacrifice was removed from Bethak.
  1:22'39.865   Bethak suffers 16935 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast. (7258 Absorbed)
  1:22'40.177   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Nevare.
  1:22'40.929   Bethak suffers 24193 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast.
  1:22'41.799   Bethak suffers 24193 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast.
  1:22'41.799   Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast was removed from Bethak.


Code: Select all
  1:22'03.206   Bethak gains Hand of Sacrifice.
  1:22'03.961   Leviathan Mk II #1 melee swing hits Bethak for 6310 Physical. (1336 Blocked) (2704 Absorbed)
  1:22'04.081   Bethak is afflicted by Plasma Blast.
  1:22'05.078   Bethak suffers 17459 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast. (7482 Absorbed)
  1:22'05.291   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Jaundice.
  1:22'06.078   Bethak suffers 17459 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast. (7482 Absorbed)
  1:22'06.482   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Jaundice.
  1:22'07.224   Bethak suffers 17459 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast. (7482 Absorbed)
  1:22'07.340   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Jaundice.
  1:22'08.058   Bethak suffers 17459 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast. (7482 Absorbed)
  1:22'08.463   Bethak Hand of Sacrifice causes 0 damage to Jaundice.
  1:22'08.058   Jaundice Hand of Sacrifice was removed from Bethak.
  1:22'09.191   Bethak suffers 24941 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast.
  1:22'10.119   Bethak suffers 24942 #UNKNOWN damage from Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast.
  1:22'10.119   Leviathan Mk II #1 Plasma Blast was removed from Bethak.


First one is a Holy Pally, second is ret.

Both cases Hand of Sac stops functioning before the duration around 24k hp for the holy pally and 25k hp for the ret. Which off the top of my head is their hp raid buffed.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Jasari » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:06 am

Divine Sacrifice only lasting 6 seconds on our Auriaya kill on Tuesday:

Code: Select all
[15:37:45.187] Alhana gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.468] Numberseven gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.468] Toìletduck gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.468] Popsicles gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.468] Dragunzro gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.468] Bruven gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.468] Arylene gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.468] Frederski gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.484] Gaybone gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:45.484] Jasari gains Divine Sacrifice from Alhana
[15:37:51.187] Alhana's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Numberseven's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Toìletduck's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Popsicles's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Dragunzro's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Bruven's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Arylene's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Frederski's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Gaybone's Divine Sacrifice fades
[15:37:51.359] Jasari's Divine Sacrifice fades
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Selgar » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:55 am

^^ This, deleted the log but same thing with me only lasted 6 seconds on Auryia.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Jasari » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:59 am

Interestingly enough, WoL also only shows Divine Sacrifices as absorbing just over 7k damage during those 6 seconds on Auraiya:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1NIO ... 486&e=4655

I'm not sure how accurate that is though.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Non » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:21 pm

This is data from our Ulduar raid yesterday

XT
Used Divine Sacrifice on the first Tantrum and it absorbed 189k dmg
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hXYf ... 027&e=4259

Mimiron
Used in 2nd phase and it absorbed 212k dmg
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hXYf ... 089&e=7574
(off topic: Sacred shield absorbed 100k dmg on this fight)
Last edited by Non on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Karaghiosis » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:54 pm

So far, we again have some conflicting data but it may be explained by the following:

Both Hand of Sac and Divine Sac are intended to be capped at their respective %'s regardless of whether or not the damage is absorbed. However, massive instantaneous damage such as tantrum, sonic scream, mim phase 2, etc can result in excess damage absorbed. This will not however help as much for periodic damage from things like plasma blast, mim Hardmode fire, freya hard mode explosions, hodir frozen blows, etc.

I cant access the logs of the above poster from work, but this theory can be disproved if the absorptions are continued over the course of the 10 second duration rather than all lumped within a very small span.

Thoughts?
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Re: Hand of Sacrifice / Divine Sacrifice Mechanics

Postby Kelaan » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:10 pm

Whoops, made a new thread specifically about testing this in a controlled environment, and forgot we had this thread. /whew!

This is in response to Baelor's curt dismissal at EJ's hands when he asked about the interaction between Divine Shield and Divine Sacrifice. Let's abolish doubt and test the damn thing ourselves. I'd like to have a specific test of it, in addition to the WWS-es and info that others have given in this thread.

Let us Hypothesize that Divine Sacrifice DOES absorb the entire time that Divine Shield is active.

Test setup:
  • Get a four friends, including an AOE capable healer.
  • Bring some people to come stand in lava with you in Molten Core or BRD, or any other reliable source of constant incoming damage (Shadowmoon Valley's lava, if you like?).
  • You must have sufficient health to survive the damage from your friends standing in lava being redirected.
  • You must have little enough health that 150% of your health will definitely be absorbed before the normal duration of Divine Sacrifice is over. Three ticks, perhaps, or four? Being naked is probably sufficient. Rez sickness is probably not necessary.
  • Record a combat log and watch recount's raid damage realtime graph.
  • Consider videotaping this with Fraps or some other tool such as XFire's video recorder.

Sub-tests
  1. Stand in the fire, with someone AOE healing your group. It must be enough that the damage won't kill you, but enough that the damage will cap before the duration is over. (Stripping mostly naked probably will achieve this.) Note the amount of damage on ticks and the group's incoming DPS in Recount.
  2. Note group incoming DPS while you are un-bubbled.
  3. Cast Divine Sacrifice -- verify that it caps at 150% of your health when you're not bubbled, and note how many ticks that equates to on your friends' combat logs. Note group incoming DPS during this time.
  4. Now stand in the fire while bubbled, but without Divine Sacrifice active. Note the group's incoming dps. (This should be 80% of the damage from test 1.)
  5. Bubble and cast Divine Sacrifice. Note the group's incoming lava damage DPS, and when/whether it changes at any point before your bubble runs out. If it lasts longer (time, or tick-count) than your un-bubbled Divine Sacrifice, then you know that the damage does not cap at 150%.

Testing data:
I have not tested this hypothesis yet. I'll see if I can do it sometime this weekend, unless someone else beats me to it. (Independent confirmation is always good, though.)
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