Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

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Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby defeated » Tue May 26, 2009 6:33 am

I was checking out some info here and have not been able to see a thread as to why you chose to gem Agi+stam purple gems instead of the dodge rating+stam, i understand that the Agi gives you crit, dodge, and armor, but are the amounts given worth not gemming for dodge?

Also i have been using a spec as yours besides 2 points difference, as mine are in imp HoJ instead of DG, and i used to have a 5/60/6 spec, and was worried why it seemed as though my dps were getting close on my TPS than before, i am using the correct rotation+throwing in the exorcism whenever i can on single targets but still i worried about having aggro stolen from me in a Ulduar 10 PuG raid.
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby Jasari » Tue May 26, 2009 6:41 am

You question is answered in detail here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23473
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby defeated » Tue May 26, 2009 6:54 am

Very insightful, thank you Jasari. :D
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby theckhd » Tue May 26, 2009 9:18 am

Since Jasari already answered the gemming question, I'll quickly address the spec question:
defeated wrote:Also i have been using a spec as yours besides 2 points difference, as mine are in imp HoJ instead of DG, and i used to have a 5/60/6 spec, and was worried why it seemed as though my dps were getting close on my TPS than before, i am using the correct rotation+throwing in the exorcism whenever i can on single targets but still i worried about having aggro stolen from me in a Ulduar 10 PuG raid.

You should see higher threat output with a deep ret spec like the one I use (0/53/18). The difference will depend on your exact choice of ret talents; I go with only 3 points in Conviction (and 3 in Crusade) so that I can pick up PoJ, which means I should see about 100 TPS over a 5/60/6 build with 5/5 SotP, if you skip PoJ to pick up 5 in Conviction, it's closer to 200 TPS better than the SotP build. This plot gives a pretty good overview of how threat changes with spec choices for a 969.

As a side note, I'm currently dual-prot specced, because I'm testing out a 5/59/7 with Divinity. So far, I haven't really noticed that much difference outside of missing PoJ. Survivability has been about the same, threat's a little lower, but not to the point of being unable to hold aggro. I still like the Crusade spec better so far.

It's also worth pointing out that throwing Exorcism into the mix probably isn't worth it. It's only about a 5 TPS difference without the Exorcism glyph, which is small enough that you won't even be able to notice it. Slight variations in latency and your ability to keep up 969 will make a much bigger difference than that. Remembering to pop Avenging Wrath when you won't need bubblewall within 30 seconds helps a good bit too.

If your rotation is perfect, the next place to look is gear, glyphs, buffs, etc. If your threat seems low, try and switch some items around to boost your STR and Hit. If you're using Potency (+20 STR) on your weapon, Switch to Accuracy.
If you're below 25 expertise, you should be using the SoV glyph, as it's one of the best threat glyphs we have. If you're using 2 DPS glyphs, use SoV and Judgement.
Dragonfin Fillet (40 STR food) is still the best threat food available, so you could stock up on those. If survivability isn't a problem, you can switch out your flask for elixirs - 50 STR or 20 stats combined with the armor elixir will give you a nice threat boost and salvage a good chunk of the survivability you lose from the flask's bonus HP.
And finally, if your DPS players significantly out-gear you, threat will always be an issue. You just need to remind them to use their threat-reducing talents early and often until you pick up the gear you need to keep up with them. If you don't need HoSalv as a personal damage reduction cooldown, use it liberally on the DPS players, and ask other paladins to help do so as well.
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby majiben » Tue May 26, 2009 11:05 am

Final note is to make sure your dps pick up their threat reducing talents if issues persist.
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby defeated » Tue May 26, 2009 1:48 pm

Ok, thanks Theck, well , maybe an armory post may help.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Defiance

Not perfect gear, but hey i work with what i can get. Now i have been contemplating swapping out my RD glyph for the HoTR glyph, and i have thought about the Salv glyph but that one doens't seem to be as helpful to me as i would really need, not yet anyway. Now my worry is that with the RD glyph no longer being used i will miss taunts, and i know how irritating it was when i ran with a DK on mimiron, and they said "oops taunt missed" Another thing i thought about is that with the new Ulduar gear, i will more than likely not have the 26 expertise like i do now in my current gear with the SoV glyph, so once i fall below that, would it even be useful to use the SoV glyph anymore, or would i be better off using something else in place of it?
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby QuantumDelta » Wed May 27, 2009 12:34 pm

I really don't wanna think what my character would be called if titles stacked, one thing's for sure... you wouldn't be able to read it with a normal monitor :<!
nani shini umareta no? nani shini koko ni iru?
ikinokoritai, umaranai kizum, hikari osoreteta
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby theckhd » Wed May 27, 2009 1:16 pm

defeated wrote:Ok, thanks Theck, well , maybe an armory post may help.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Defiance

Not perfect gear, but hey i work with what i can get. Now i have been contemplating swapping out my RD glyph for the HoTR glyph, and i have thought about the Salv glyph but that one doens't seem to be as helpful to me as i would really need, not yet anyway. Now my worry is that with the RD glyph no longer being used i will miss taunts, and i know how irritating it was when i ran with a DK on mimiron, and they said "oops taunt missed" Another thing i thought about is that with the new Ulduar gear, i will more than likely not have the 26 expertise like i do now in my current gear with the SoV glyph, so once i fall below that, would it even be useful to use the SoV glyph anymore, or would i be better off using something else in place of it?

My suggestion would be to decide whether you want 2 threat glyphs or 1 threat glyph + 1 utility glyph. You'll obviously keep Divine Plea for your third glyph.
If you want to go with 2 threat glyphs, then use SoV and Judgement. Those will give you the biggest threat boost (115 TPS from SoV, and 70 from Judgement).

If you want to go with 1 threat glyph and 1 utility glyph, then you need to choose one of those two threat glyphs. The SoV glyph is your best threat option until you're near the dodge cap. Your armory shows that you have 16 expertise, so the SoV glyph is the clear winner for you.
(Aside: Even above the dodge cap (26 expertise), the SoV glyph is almost exactly as good as the Judgement glyph. I generally just tell people to use SoV regardless, since the difference is tiny and that way you don't need to worry about changing glyphs every time your expertise changes).

As for the utility glyph, I'd choose between HoSalv (if you want an extra cooldown) or RD (if you like the extra hit on taunts). Those are really the only two worth using.

My thoughts on the HotR glyph are in another thread somewhere, but the short version is "Useful if tanking exactly four mobs, and useless otherwise." As a result, I'm not really a fan of this glyph.

Now that we have two taunts, the RD glyph really isn't necessary, especially if you can pick up some hit rating from gear. It's certainly irritating to have taunts resist, but so is having trouble holding aggro. If you don't need an extra cooldown in the form of HoSalv, then you may as well just stick with 2 threat glyphs.

It sounds like you're mostly concerned with threat on bosses. Given that, I'd just go with 2 threat glyphs. Also, by going with Judgement+Vengeance glyphs, you make Exorcism substitution fairly worthless, so you can save it for nabbing loose adds (that's the 5 TPS difference I mentioned earlier - it's a little different if you're restricted to a single threat glyph, but I haven't had time to post that analysis yet - maybe tomorrow).

I'll try and /wave next time I see you in WG. :D
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby defeated » Wed May 27, 2009 4:03 pm

Oh, the dodge cap is 26 expertise? what is the parry cap? All of the threads i have read about this have confused me in which i should be trying to get, also considering many pieces i plan on getting from ulduar/badges does not have expertise, but do have hit on them. Also when i get the more hit from some of the newer pieces of gear, what amount would make it so RD never misses, or with the RD glyph is it still possible to miss, i have read many sites some saying 8% to miss, and others saying RD has a higher chance to miss though being a spell and not a melee attack, any clarification would be great considering i have my RD bound to my z key ready to RD at a moments notice.

I also thought the HotR glyph was kind of useless because in many cases you don't always have more than 3 mobs in a raid situation and usually you can hold more by tab targetting HotRing them to get extra stacks of SoV, but i also wondered about the Exorcism glyph, does it put out more TPS than the judgement glyph or does judgement generate more due to its tps increasing with each stack of SoV?

Oh yeah never noticed you were on Blackrock Theck, i will do the same if i spot you. =) I transferred over here on monday from a lowly populated (horde side) server called Bronzebeard, which is also why i have noticed dps here is much higher and players put out way more TPS than noticed on my old server. =P
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby theckhd » Wed May 27, 2009 8:15 pm

defeated wrote:Oh, the dodge cap is 26 expertise? what is the parry cap?

The parry cap is 56 expertise, which isn't worth gearing for. In fact the dodge cap isn't really worth gearing for either from a sustained threat standpoint, but it does help a bit with snap aggro (no more HotR dodges).

defeated wrote:Also when i get the more hit from some of the newer pieces of gear, what amount would make it so RD never misses, or with the RD glyph is it still possible to miss, i have read many sites some saying 8% to miss, and others saying RD has a higher chance to miss though being a spell and not a melee attack, any clarification would be great considering i have my RD bound to my z key ready to RD at a moments notice.

Righteous Defense counts as a spell, so it uses the 17% spell hit cap. It takes 26.23 hit rating for 1% spell hit, so it would take 446 hit rating to ensure that RD doesn't resist. With the glyph, this drops to 236 hit rating. The 3% hit boss debuff would remove 79 rating off of either of those numbers.
It's generally not worth aiming for the higher number, even without the glyph. Just take what hit rating comes from gear and work with it, or use as much as you feel reduces HotR/ShoR misses to an acceptable level.

defeated wrote:I also thought the HotR glyph was kind of useless because in many cases you don't always have more than 3 mobs in a raid situation and usually you can hold more by tab targetting HotRing them to get extra stacks of SoV, but i also wondered about the Exorcism glyph, does it put out more TPS than the judgement glyph or does judgement generate more due to its tps increasing with each stack of SoV?

This was in one of the links I posted earlier, but the Judgement glyph is pretty much identical to the Exorcism glyph. If you're going with 2 threat glyphs, Judgement will be the better choice, because it doesn't require you to sub Exorcism into your rotation to make it useful.
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby defeated » Thu May 28, 2009 7:28 am

Ok, so once i get more gear pieces however and end up losing some of the expertise i have, since many of the better items now do not have expertise on them, should i still be using the SoV glyph for TPS, or start looking at something else since i will no longer be at the dodge cap for expertise?
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby theckhd » Thu May 28, 2009 8:23 am

defeated wrote:Ok, so once i get more gear pieces however and end up losing some of the expertise i have, since many of the better items now do not have expertise on them, should i still be using the SoV glyph for TPS, or start looking at something else since i will no longer be at the dodge cap for expertise?

I think you're misunderstanding how SoV interacts with the dodge cap. The glyph gets better the less expertise you have from gear.

At 0 expertise, the boss has a 6.5% chance of dodging you, and a 14% chance to parry you.
Each point of expertise reduces the chance the boss will dodge you by 0.25% as well as the chance he'll parry you by 0.25%.

It takes 26 expertise to reduce the dodge chance to 0% (and the parry chance to 7.5%).
It takes 56 expertise to reduce the parry chance to 0%.

Each point of expertise after 26 is half as effective as it was below 26, because the boss already has a 0% chance to dodge. Thus, expertise gets weaker above the dodge soft cap. It's entirely useless above the parry cap of 56, but this is rarely achieved in practice anyway.

The SoV glyph is exactly 10 expertise skill. If you have less than 16 expertise skill without the glyph (like you do), the glyph is worth around 120 TPS. As you get more expertise, the SoV becomes weaker, because expertise becomes weaker. If you have exactly 26 expertise without the glyph, the SoV glyph is basically equivalent to the Judgement one (around 70 TPS). It doesn't become significantly weaker until you have around 47 expertise.

So as you shed some of the expertise rating on your gear, the SoV glyph gets better, not worse. My advice in general is to just use the SoV glyph and not worry about the details, because the difference is so small you won't be able to notice it. The only exception is if you're packing 46+ expertise rating without the glyph active, which is very unlikely.

Note that all the numbers I've quoted here are expertise skill, not expertise rating.
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby defeated » Thu May 28, 2009 9:04 am

I think i understand now then, even less than the 26 expertise, expertise is still usefull? When i activate my SoV i have 26 expertise exactly. So once i lose some of it, i guess its still better then, and i would think for even mobs atleast since i would think they have a lower chance to dodge/parry?
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby theckhd » Thu May 28, 2009 9:13 am

defeated wrote:I think i understand now then, even less than the 26 expertise, expertise is still usefull?

Yep, expertise is in fact most useful below 26. It gets slightly less useful as you go higher than 26, and becomes useless after 56.

Think of it exactly like hit rating - when your hit rating is low, you miss a lot, so more hit rating is good. When you stack enough hit rating that you can't miss with melee attacks, adding more hit rating becomes less useful. If you stack enough that even your spells can't miss, extra hit rating beyond that point becomes useless.

defeated wrote:When i activate my SoV i have 26 expertise exactly. So once i lose some of it, i guess its still better then, and i would think for even mobs atleast since i would think they have a lower chance to dodge/parry?

Yes, the SoV glyph will definitely be your best choice for bosses. For non-boss mobs it's less useful for exactly the reason you guessed: they have a lower chance to dodge/parry. However, the difference will be fairly slight unless you're already expertise-heavy due to gear, so it's not worth re-glyphing for trash in most cases.
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Re: Hey Theck, i have a few questions.

Postby defeated » Thu May 28, 2009 10:13 am

Awesome, it makes perfect sense now, now i just need to get some better gear and i am good to go.

Thank you for answering all of my questions and trying to help me understand all of this Theck, i really appreciate it. =)
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