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Defense vs Dodge/Parry

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Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Strobe » Mon May 25, 2009 4:24 am

I'm sure this topic has been done before, but a quick search turned up nothing. That, and current info is good.

A couple of posts over at TankingTips reveal that defense pretty much blows both dodge and parry out of the water as a pure avoidance stat. My own unscientific tests a couple of months ago showed the same: I'd get more pure avoidance point for point than dodge. I believe I tried this when nude, switching valor medal with repelling charge. That's pretty significant, when considering diminishing returns.

I'm still seeing many people stuck at 540 def (OK if you're after EH) and the use of dodge gems. I don't think I've ever seen defense discussed as a viable avoidance stat to actually try for past 540.

I'm not making an argument here, just looking for some clarification. What am I missing?
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Varmin » Mon May 25, 2009 4:32 am

Defense and dodge gems are not the same color.
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Rehlachs » Mon May 25, 2009 4:33 am

Strobe wrote:. I believe I tried this when nude, switching valor medal with repelling charge. That's pretty significant, when considering diminishing returns. [...] What am I missing?


You forgot to consider DR.
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Strobe » Mon May 25, 2009 7:03 am

Rehlachs wrote:
Strobe wrote:. I believe I tried this when nude, switching valor medal with repelling charge. That's pretty significant, when considering diminishing returns. [...] What am I missing?


You forgot to consider DR.

But def > dodge/parry moreso when considering DR. Think I just have my numbers wrong somewhere.
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Rehlachs » Mon May 25, 2009 7:26 am

Strobe wrote:But def > dodge/parry moreso when considering DR. Am I wrong?


The calculations in the article you posted are coming from a situation without any DR, therefore those numbers are quasi irrelevant (since you actually have >689 defense rating, without considering any gear setups including Resilience). Furthermore, the dominance of defense rating or dodge rating depends on the existing values of these stats.

Probably there already is a table showing the number of the required defense rating to make dodge more/less favorable.
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Strobe » Mon May 25, 2009 7:33 am

Ah, that makes sense. Anyone have a table/graph?
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon May 25, 2009 9:29 am

TankingTips is also warrior-centric: for warriors, defense is still really, really good. Since the implementation of DR, Def stacking over 540 minimum is not as optimal as hitting 540 then stacking Dodge. Which makes me sad -- I used to be a huge defense stacker, but it doesn't make sense anymore past a certain gearing level.

From my own experience, def stacking at 50% avoidance (DPM) is still ok, but when you start approaching 60%, Dodge (or agil, if you choose to go that way) wins out. I'm afraid I don't have math handy; I should probably work it out to make sure I wasn't imagining things.
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Steve » Mon May 25, 2009 1:16 pm

Last time I did the same swap -- 84 def vs 84 dodge -- the dodge was still better for pure avoidance. I'm at roughly 25.8 dodge and 21 parry unbuffed. (I mention the parry because my highish parry rating likely hurts the relative value of defense.)

I suspect defense will only become better when you start to catch defense in rating, depending on how much parry you're carrying at the time. And that's probably not going to happen before Icecrown.
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Lave » Wed May 27, 2009 7:01 am

Varmin wrote:Defense and dodge gems are not the same color.

this. i'd love to put defense/stamina gems in my red sockets but it doesnt work :<
blue - stam
yell - def/stam
red - dodge/stam

gemming for dodge doesnt necessarily mean one doesnt like gemming for defense more
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby lythac » Wed May 27, 2009 11:30 am

Strobe wrote:A couple of posts over at TankingTips reveal that defense pretty much blows both dodge and parry out of the water as a pure avoidance stat.


It isn't saying that -

So, as we see again… Defense offers a better return on Avoidance than Parry does and almost as good of return as Dodge.


Yes it offers more avoidance than parry, it always has done. Dodge still offers more avoidance than def. Even with high amounts of dodge I'm not sure if defense can pull ahead because the bosses chance to miss from defense suffers harsher DR than parry and dodge.

Dodge > Defense > Parry

To:

Defense > Dodge > Parry


This change for warrior gearing has arisen due to the change to shield block. Before Block Rating was pretty much useless for a warrior. Nowdays if you're spamming shieldblock when its up BR is in use for 3/4 time, higher if you're using it intelligently.

Now for paladin gearing it is

Defense > Dodge > Parry - Before block cap

Dodge > Defense > Parry - After block cap
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Parium » Wed May 27, 2009 12:14 pm

Hrm, how about gemming agility instead of pure dodge though? You'll get the armor from it as well. For me right now its a difference of 0.4 or .03 dodge per gem. I don't know how much armor it's adding though. Thoguhts?

Edit: also isn't agility affected by king where as dodge is't?
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed May 27, 2009 12:24 pm

Parium wrote:Hrm, how about gemming agility instead of pure dodge though? You'll get the armor from it as well. For me right now its a difference of 0.4 or .03 dodge per gem. I don't know how much armor it's adding though. Thoguhts?

Edit: also isn't agility affected by king where as dodge is't?


This thread might have some answers for you.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23473&start=15
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Re: Defense vs Dodge/Parry

Postby Parium » Wed May 27, 2009 12:42 pm

LOL I was just coming to fix my post with that same topic. I went browsing into the het theck I got some questions for you and that was in there from Jesim (spelling). But yeah for the point I am with my dodge agility is starting to look better and better for me. And when JC takes its flip to the darkside I may use agility even more..
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