Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:30 am

Ezikiel wrote:if we have divine plea up and blood draining proccs, will it get the divine plea healing penalty?


Divine Plea only reduces healing done by FoL, HL, and Holy Shock.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Constantíne » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:36 pm

I was wondering about magic dmg vs. physical. It seems like for magic damage fights this enchant would be superior (defensively, anyway) to any other possible weapon enchant. I say that because all other weapon enchants increase a stat (agl, str, parry, armor from agl, BV from str,) this enchant provied a reactive heal at a very important time.

ie: You get hit in the face by Steelbreaker's fusion punch. Since it's 30k magic damage none of the other enchants provide any benefit whatsoever, while this one heals you right when you need it most, buying another second for that phat HL to land.

Or maybe i'm just missing something (which is likely).
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Awyndel » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:30 pm

Majiben wrote:How about ST - Solo time (to live of a boss)


I'd say AST, average solo time, since avoidance is a chance.

how about we call it chance to not die instead :P
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby cougbait » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:31 pm

Constantíne wrote:I was wondering about magic dmg vs. physical. It seems like for magic damage fights this enchant would be superior (defensively, anyway) to any other possible weapon enchant. I say that because all other weapon enchants increase a stat (agl, str, parry, armor from agl, BV from str,) this enchant provied a reactive heal at a very important time.

ie: You get hit in the face by Steelbreaker's fusion punch. Since it's 30k magic damage none of the other enchants provide any benefit whatsoever, while this one heals you right when you need it most, buying another second for that phat HL to land.

Or maybe i'm just missing something (which is likely).



this seems pretty true and has no put this enchant #1 on my list of things to get... ty
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby cougbait » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:01 am

i might have missed it but does anyone actualy have it on their toon yet? and any reviews from in game.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby cougbait » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:05 am

i might have missed it but does anyone actually have it on their toon yet? and any reviews from in game.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:10 am

I've enchanted my Shiver with it, but so far haven't really had time to test it.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Maddok » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:38 am

I have it on my Titanguard, when I look at a wws and considering what kind of run we just had (farm or progression) the amount healed by blood reserve fluctuates wildly. If it was a progression night and my health was all over the place all night it can heal for a significant amount, but on a farm night where I rarely hit AD range it heals for next to nothing. I sorry I can't dig up some sample numbers since wws is blocked at work.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby rokkon » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:46 am

cougbait wrote:i might have missed it but does anyone actually have it on their toon yet? and any reviews from in game.


I have it and I'm enjoying it. It's saved a wipe a few times (but as pointed out earlier a dodge enchant could have very well done the same thing). I lean towards it for the simple reason it's the only enchant geared towards increasing effective health. I've had similar experiences as Maddock, on new content it kicks in quite often but on stuff we have on farm I rarely see it.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Awyndel » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:20 am

If somebody gets some numbers please post it here. I am terrible with that sort of thing.

I'd like to compare it to agility in usefullness for saving my but. Since it is on demand but saving, if it happens fairly well and fairly frequent, I am very tempted getting this.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Maddok » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:46 pm

Okay here are some numbers from a couple "farm" fights from our 25 man last week:

Code: Select all
XT (Normal) - I was the Pummeler Tank
Self Healing:
Improved Leader of the Pack   
Healed: 11 829   Dots: 7   Average: 1 689   Max:1 722   Over Heal: 79 %

No Healing done by Blood Reserve

Kologarn - Rubble Tank
Improved Leader of the Pack   =
Healed: 46 760   Dots: 27   Average: 1 731   Max:1 744   Over Heal: 54 %

No Healing done by Blood Reserve

Auriaya - Add Tank
Improved Leader of the Pack   
Healed: 77 124   Dots:43   Average: 1 793   Max: 2 474   Over Heal: 79 %

Blood Reserve   
Healed: 1 367   Hits: 2   Average: 683   Max: 913                        

From the pull on the pull when I ended up w/ three adds at the beginning.



Now from the total that was progression night (Keepers: Hodir, Freya, and Thorim)
Code: Select all
Improved Leader of the Pack
Healed: 383 827   Dots:230   Average: 1 668   Max: 2 505   Over Heal: 71 %

Blood Reserve   
Healed: 41 824   Hits: 20   Average: 1 148   Max: 3 586   



Our WWS from last week is all jacked up since the person doing it was on the gauntlet and it didn't merge right, I'll try and get a better one to post this week.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Awyndel » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:34 pm

Well I realise it's a nice enchant because it's there when you need it, it could save your life if spike damage gets you low on health. On the other hand agility gives you avoidance wich helps to prevent spike damage from happening.

The general rule is you need enough EH to survive spike damage and after that you stack avoidance to prevent spike damage. I have no clue where blood draining fits into this. And I really wonder wich of the 2 enchants would save your life ( because that is the whole point of getting blood draining isn't it ) more often.

Was hoping theck was gonna come up with some numbers by now. Although I realise that's the easy way out, I just don't know about this myself.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:17 am

Awyndel wrote:Was hoping theck was gonna come up with some numbers by now. Although I realise that's the easy way out, I just don't know about this myself.

I've been busy moving to a new apartment for the past week or so, and haven't had time to do any raiding or theorycrafting. I doubt I'll get any time for another week or so yet.

Regardless, I'm not sure what you expect me to come up with. There's no trivial way to compare this enchant to an avoidance enchant.

An avoidance enchant will help you survive and reduce incoming damage by completely avoiding swings. If you happen to avoid one that would have killed you otherwise, it's saved your life.

This enchant is a very different beast though, it's a heal triggered when you're near death. It does nothing for you if you're topped off after every hit, because it will never trigger (whereas avoidance would). It also won't save you if you're within one boss-hit of dying (whereas avoidance might). On the other hand, it can save you if you take a hit that brings you to 1-2k below that one-hit threshold.

The best way to think about this enchant is a temporary increase to your incoming Heals Per Second (HPS) that triggers whenever you're low on health. This is great if your low health was caused by a temporary drop in the HPS you were receiving from healers (maybe one had to move); the enchant helps cover the slack in that case. It's not going to help if your incoming HPS from the raid is less than DTPS from the boss (i.e. when a healer dies); in that case it just buys you another few seconds.

The only obvious way to compare the two is to write a full tanking simulator, and run it a few thousand times with each enchant under realistic conditions. Even then it wouldn't be very clear - we could see how many times the Blood Draining enchant saved your life, and we could see how many the avoidance enchant did the same, but the results would likely vary so much with the initial conditions that it'd be hard to draw any solid conclusions.
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Awyndel » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:38 am

theckhd wrote:The only obvious way to compare the two is to write a full tanking simulator, and run it a few thousand times with each enchant under realistic conditions. Even then it wouldn't be very clear - we could see how many times the Blood Draining enchant saved your life, and we could see how many the avoidance enchant did the same, but the results would likely vary so much with the initial conditions that it'd be hard to draw any solid conclusions.


Well I have been looking for such a simulation to be able to compare EH and avoidance in general, but I guess you are right, I am being kind of unrealistic here. Comparing apples and oranges.

I would like to see some data on the procs and amounts healed though, to be able to make a judgement call. From my own experience I can say the amount healed is just fine, and it's there when you need it the most, works perfectly. But what worries me a lot is the fact that we don't have any bleeds to make it stack faster. On average I gain a stack like once every 10 seconds. This is very slow, especially compared to the boss attack speed. It becomes less usefull on fast hitters and adds obviously, but that is not what we where looking for with this anyway.

And don't worry about having no time. I completely understand. I'm not paying you ( yet ) . I guess it is kinda easy letting you draw conslusions for me, but you're so damn good at it :wink: .
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Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby theckhd » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:40 am

Awyndel wrote:On average I gain a stack like once every 10 seconds. This is very slow, especially compared to the boss attack speed.

I seem to remember reading that it has a high proc chance but a 10-second internal cooldown, which would "normalize" it between tanks with respect to bleeds and number of melee attacks. Thus it will always take around 50 seconds to build a full 5-stack.

That's probably my biggest complaint about the enchant. 50 seconds is a long time, and it would be far more effective if the stacks built up much faster. A 5-6 second internal cooldown would probably be about right.
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