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Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue May 12, 2009 2:33 pm

This is great stuff. Thanks for putting in the work.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby Arjuna » Tue May 12, 2009 9:51 pm

so, basically, dodge > parry in almost all situations?

where does def rating fit into all of this then, in terms of avoidance?

def>dodge>parry?

dodge>def>parry?

(I assume it's not dodge>parry>def)
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby Ascendant » Tue May 12, 2009 10:27 pm

Arjuna wrote:so, basically, dodge > parry in almost all situations?

where does def rating fit into all of this then, in terms of avoidance?

def>dodge>parry?

dodge>def>parry?

(I assume it's not dodge>parry>def)


after you reach 540 defense (689 defense rating), [dodge > defense > parry] until somewhere around 600 dodge rating. after that there is a ratio to follow (like 2 dodge for every 3 defense). There is no realistic scenario where parry would be better than either.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby jere » Wed May 13, 2009 8:40 am

After looking at the math some more, I think the 2.3437 number may not be correct, though the 1.875 one is. I need to make sure I relook at the math for the rating to rating comparison (2.3437), but the pure percent to percent comparison (1.875) is good, as I was able to verify that one.

I think I am making the conversion from percentage to rating incorrectly with respect to the type of equation it is.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby sawzall » Wed May 13, 2009 12:13 pm

Just to be clear, because my dodge is way off from 600...when i mouse-over dodge it needs to read 600-700???
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby jere » Wed May 13, 2009 12:44 pm

I did find that 2.3437 is incorrect. I have the correct equation for it, but don't have time to post it right now. I will soon though.

sawzall wrote:Just to be clear, because my dodge is way off from 600...when i mouse-over dodge it needs to read 600-700???

I am not sure what you are asking? You character sheet tells you how much Dodge rating you have, how much dodge it gives before DR, and how much dodge you have total after DR. None of those are ranges. Or are you asking Ascendant about his post?
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby sawzall » Wed May 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Sorry to be more clear, my sheet states:

Dodge Chance: 24.45
Dodge Rating of 402 adds 10.22%

Am I looking for a Dodge Rating of 600? I do not see were it shows DR.
I have been under the assumption of stacking health and having around 20% Dodge, Parry, Block. I'm moving more toward Avoidance now as I've gotten some comments on being "difficult to heal"

Thanks for the help :D
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby Panzerdin » Wed May 13, 2009 1:29 pm

There is no magic dodge value at which it starts becoming worse. It's always advisable to stack them in a certain ratio. It just so happens that, in visible value, dodge outperforms defence until 600 rating, at which point they should be stacked in a 3:2 ratio.

So TLDR, yes.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby daemonym » Wed May 13, 2009 3:38 pm

jere wrote:27.0% dodge => you are going to be about 60% efficient at this point


so this means that my 28% dodge in gear i have planned (all things/buffs included) translates to only 22% -actual- dodge chance? jesus i'm way off from the block cap...
Last edited by daemonym on Wed May 13, 2009 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby Kelaan » Wed May 13, 2009 3:40 pm

This is why one should use Tankadin2 or one of the updated macros which take diminishing returns into account, even if you're not a paladin tank.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby jere » Wed May 13, 2009 3:57 pm

daemonym wrote:
jere wrote:27.0% dodge => you are going to be about 60% efficient at this point


so this means that my 28% dodge in gear i have planned (all things/buffs included) translates to only 22% -actual- dodge chance? jesus i'm way off from the block cap...


No, it means once you hit 27.0% from gear, your next 1% will only yield about 0.6%, roughly. However, getting 27.0% from gear alone seems like a huge number. That would be like 37% pre DR, which would be a lot larger than I would have thought possible, but honestly I haven't tallied my gear to see what I have pre DR.

Oddly enough, 27.0% dodge pre DR comes out to be 21.39%, so it still would be a sucky number. Make sure you are subtracting out your 10% for talents and naked stats as they don't get affected by DR.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby jere » Wed May 13, 2009 4:15 pm

I updated my original post with the correct equation for rating versus rating. I was making the mistake of simply doing the rating comparison after the math, but when I actually went back and worked out the algebra, I was off. It should be corrected now.

So in review:

Comparing Dodge % to Parry % pre DR (when to stack parry % over dodge %):
Code: Select all
d > 1.875*p


Comparing Dodge Rating to Parry rating pre DR (when to stack parry rating over dodge rating):
Code: Select all
d > 2.096252*p + 9.944522


Comparing Dodge % to Parry % post DR (when to stack parry % over dodge %):
Code: Select all
d_dr > 1.875*p_dr


Comparing Dodge Rating to Parry Rating post DR (when to stack parry rating over dodge rating):
Code: Select all
d_dr > 1.677002*p_dr + 9.304028


I'll post the math for this later once I get equation editor working again.

Remember that all those are percentages:
d ==> dodge percent before DR minus talents and naked stats
p ==> parry percent before DR minus talents and naked stats
d_dr ==> dodge percent after DR minus talents and naked stats
p_dr ==> parry percent after DR minus talents and naked stats

Also, this is a slippery slope because parry has such a steep DR curve. Even if parry ever becomes better to stack (I don't think it can practically), the moment you add more parry, things can change drastically and dodge may be better again.


EXAMPLE:
On my character sheet, I have:
25.1% dodge
19.6% parry

Subtracting out my talents and naked stats:
15.1% dodge
9.6% parry

Using the rating to rating comparison (post DR):
d_dr > 1.677002*9.6 + 9.304028

I get that it is better to start stacking parry rating when my dodge is 25.4% after DR and before talents/naked stats.

I only have 15.1% dodge after DR and before talents/naked stats, so I have a long long way to go before stacking parry rating is better.

Alternately, if I am curious about when is it better to stack parry % over dodge %, I can use the percent to percent comparison (post DR):
d_dr > 1.875*9.6

I get that it is better to start stacking parry % when my dodge is 18% after DR and before talents/naked stats. Again, I have 15.1%, so I am closer to that point. However, once I would really need to be way past that point or as soon as I add a percent of parry, dodge % would be better again.
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Re: Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

Postby daemonym » Wed May 13, 2009 5:18 pm

jere wrote:
daemonym wrote:
jere wrote:27.0% dodge => you are going to be about 60% efficient at this point


so this means that my 28% dodge in gear i have planned (all things/buffs included) translates to only 22% -actual- dodge chance? jesus i'm way off from the block cap...


No, it means once you hit 27.0% from gear, your next 1% will only yield about 0.6%, roughly. However, getting 27.0% from gear alone seems like a huge number. That would be like 37% pre DR, which would be a lot larger than I would have thought possible, but honestly I haven't tallied my gear to see what I have pre DR.

Oddly enough, 27.0% dodge pre DR comes out to be 21.39%, so it still would be a sucky number. Make sure you are subtracting out your 10% for talents and naked stats as they don't get affected by DR.


ahhh i got ya now, bolded the part that i didnt catch. in that case i'll have about 18% from gear and gear alone, which would be still a lot lost i think.
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