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Insect swarm and block cap?

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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Mutley » Fri May 08, 2009 6:46 pm

Wolvar wrote:You are right, that's why I didn't use the word "soley". Boomkins bring more utility and less dps than most dps classes was my point. 3% miss just enhances thier value to the raid moreso than the (less than) 1% of overall damage that they lose without the glyph.


Completely true, if you're still playing BC. In wotlk there is no longer a dps tax for utility.

3% avoidance is nice. But just that, nice. And since all dps are held accountable for their dps I can't blame any moonkin for using the glyph. If you're wiping because you're lacking 3% miss, chances are you're doing something wrong.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Ascendant » Fri May 08, 2009 7:11 pm

Wolvar wrote:Boomkins bring more utility and less dps than most dps classes was my point.

and it is this point that I am disagreeing with. I don't know how much 3.1 changed the rankings, but in the past, balance druids were one of our best dps (depending on the fight).
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Argali » Fri May 08, 2009 7:58 pm

Mutley wrote:Completely true, if you're still playing BC. In wotlk there is no longer a dps tax for utility.

3% avoidance is nice. But just that, nice. And since all dps are held accountable for their dps I can't blame any moonkin for using the glyph. If you're wiping because you're lacking 3% miss, chances are you're doing something wrong.


On the flip side, any raid leader worth their salt doesn't lookt at just dps. The druid that does 500 dps less than every other dps'er but always come prepared, makes pots, flasks for everyone, and never dies to random FIERITBURNZ is better IMO. Any druid not using the glyph who's being hounded on dps numbers can just say "fu, I'm using the glyph."
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Levantine » Fri May 08, 2009 8:00 pm

Ascendant wrote:
Wolvar wrote:Boomkins bring more utility and less dps than most dps classes was my point.

and it is this point that I am disagreeing with. I don't know how much 3.1 changed the rankings, but in the past, balance druids were one of our best dps (depending on the fight).


This. Moonkin are currently extremely competitive DPS. I think Wolvar just needs to find one that doesn't eat paint chips in it's spare time.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Awyndel » Sat May 09, 2009 6:07 am

A very valid discussion. Being a tank I would obviously prefer 3% avoidance above a few % extra dmg on one of my many dps minions.

What I really wanted to know though, where the mechanics behind it. IS IT actually 3% avoidance?
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Ascendant » Sat May 09, 2009 8:43 am

reducing the boss's chance to hit by 3% should appear before standard avoidance on the attack table. so yes, it will push some block off, but it is 3% avoidance. This is assuming our current knowledge of the attack table is correct. If you are one of the many tanks sitting between 50% and 60% avoidance, then it is worth a little over 6% damage reduction over an extended period of time.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Kalakaua » Sat May 09, 2009 9:55 am

Ascendant wrote:The only time you are ever going to have the 3% miss debuff is when someone in your raid is "doing it wrong". It is a dps loss for both the hunter and the moonkin that can do it. Whether or not the dps loss is justified, is a question that would involve comparing two different areas of combat (neither simple nor conclusive).


Raiding is a group effort, beating the encounter takes priority over personal dps. There are a lot of things that are a "dps loss" but are still expected of raid members. It's a dps loss for a rogue to interrupt Kelthuzad's frostbolts, it's a dps loss for warrior to use demoralizing/challenging shout, it's a dps loss for mages and druids to decurse, yet all these things are worthwhile to do. The number one job of everyone in the raid is to beat the encounter and sometimes that requires doing things other than your "primary" role.

30% increase in insect swarm damage is what? 150 dps? I could probably sacrifice 3% avoidance on my gear to get a 150 dps increase, but that would be "doing it wrong".
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby majiben » Sat May 09, 2009 3:12 pm

First of all we don't have testing on hand to determine how the debuff actually works, for all we know it's a 3% multiplier on boss base miss for a grand total of .15% increase in absolute avoidance.

Additional dps is always useful, additional avoidance is not always. You say it's only a 150 dps loss, over a 5 minute fight that's 45k damage per person.

Interrupts are not in the same catorgory as this debuff. Interrupts stop huge spikes in damage and is not based on chance. Neither are AP debuffs, those are not chance. Decursing again is not chance.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby PsiVen » Sat May 09, 2009 11:57 pm

We know with high certainty that Insect Swarm and Scorpid Sting before the nerf / normalization / universal usability on bosses behaved as a flat addition to the combat table, or various Gruul/Mother/Illidan rogue tanks would have been flattened. We can infer that there is no reason that this would have changed.

It's a much much bigger hit to a hunter keeping Scorpid up than it is to ask your moonkin to drop a glyph. From a min/max perspective, that's the way to go.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Kalakaua » Sun May 10, 2009 5:23 pm

Majiben wrote:First of all we don't have testing on hand to determine how the debuff actually works, for all we know it's a 3% multiplier on boss base miss for a grand total of .15% increase in absolute avoidance.

Additional dps is always useful, additional avoidance is not always. You say it's only a 150 dps loss, over a 5 minute fight that's 45k damage per person.

Interrupts are not in the same catorgory as this debuff. Interrupts stop huge spikes in damage and is not based on chance. Neither are AP debuffs, those are not chance. Decursing again is not chance.


Exactly, one moonkin using non-glyphed swarm is a loss of 45k over the entire fight. To make up that 45k, the fight will last 1 second longer. 1 more second for 3% miss over the whole fight is well worth it imo.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby gibborim » Sun May 10, 2009 5:54 pm

Majiben wrote:First of all we don't have testing on hand to determine how the debuff actually works, for all we know it's a 3% multiplier on boss base miss for a grand total of .15% increase in absolute avoidance.

Additional dps is always useful, additional avoidance is not always. You say it's only a 150 dps loss, over a 5 minute fight that's 45k damage per person.

Interrupts are not in the same catorgory as this debuff. Interrupts stop huge spikes in damage and is not based on chance. Neither are AP debuffs, those are not chance. Decursing again is not chance.


3% aviodance is more than worth 150dps. I can't even imagine why you would think it is a bad think. Well, I guess with the extra dodges you think Blade Ward generartes, who needs 3% miss chance? amirite?
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby majiben » Sun May 10, 2009 9:25 pm

You seemed to have missed the entire point of my post.

First we don't know exactly how it works. If it works how it would appear on face value great, if not then the value is diminished a lot. Let's not forget that there have been plenty of situations where things did not work as they described. The one that comes to mind most recently is the spell damage mitigation meta. It was not reducing spell damage by 2% rather it was increasing spell resistance by 2%. Yes it was changed but without testing we couldn't have know. We need to test this before we make assumptions about it.

Second there are a multitude of situations where I could give a rat's ass about additional avoidance. Take mimiron for example. I would love more dps on that fight and would gladly sacrifice avoidance for it because the physical damage is not what kills me. Additionally the higher the dps is the safer the fight is as there is less room for errors and fewer CDs needed.

The glyph is situational.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Candiru » Mon May 11, 2009 5:29 am

Actually, you can look at the spell's implementation on wowhead for a lot of these questions.

"Effect #2 Apply Aura: Mod Hit Chance
Value: -3"

I think that's pretty clear cut :)

The meta used to say "+2% resistances" now it says "-2% spell damage taken". Wowhead information is data mined and answers most of these issues :)
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Awyndel » Mon May 11, 2009 7:31 am

Mod hit chance, what would that mean then?

I do think Majiben has a point, this needs testing. How could we go about that?
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby theckhd » Mon May 11, 2009 7:39 am

gibborim wrote:3% aviodance is more than worth 150dps. I can't even imagine why you would think it is a bad think. Well, I guess with the extra dodges you think Blade Ward generartes, who needs 3% miss chance? amirite?

While I agree that the 3% avoidance is worth the loss of DPS, and would bet money that PsiVen is correct, that last sentence was really below the belt.
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