Insect swarm and block cap?

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Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Awyndel » Thu May 07, 2009 7:32 am

I am sure some of this has been discussed before as I saw majiben hint at this being questionable several times. However I did a search and I could not find any topic explaining the reasoning.

The question is simple, does insect swarm ( or similar spell ) help with the block cap?

Now I know druids can die but so can the ppl that buff me so for the sake of argument let's asume it's a reliable debuff in my situation.

Now I read that we don't know the exact mechanics behind it. Is it however possible to say if it helps at all? Is it possible to make an estimate of how much it would help? Has any testing been done?

Any input would be appreciated, I'm not much of a math or simulation wizzard myself. If there is another topic plz forward me.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu May 07, 2009 7:41 am

It certainly should. It effectively adds exactly 3% miss to your table for that mob, unless I'm missing something. Still, unless your guild is completely overflowing with cows disguised as laser chickens I wouldn't call it reliable.

That said, I'm just not worried about block cap anymore. It's going to happen whether or not I watch my gear for it. And the couple unblocked hits I take for not being capped are only marginally more damage anyway.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Awyndel » Thu May 07, 2009 8:32 am

Tempted to do that as well, but if i can be capped with 1 or two cheap block rating items I will go for that.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby arilink » Thu May 07, 2009 9:41 pm

Most likely your Moonkin will have Glyph of Insect Swarm which at least according to Rawr yields the highest DPS increase among their glyphs.
This might lead to a lengthy argument ...
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Ascendant » Thu May 07, 2009 11:01 pm

The only time you are ever going to have the 3% miss debuff is when someone in your raid is "doing it wrong". It is a dps loss for both the hunter and the moonkin that can do it. Whether or not the dps loss is justified, is a question that would involve comparing two different areas of combat (neither simple nor conclusive).
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby kurros » Fri May 08, 2009 7:45 am

Ascendant wrote:The only time you are ever going to have the 3% miss debuff is when someone in your raid is "doing it wrong". It is a dps loss for both the hunter and the moonkin that can do it. Whether or not the dps loss is justified, is a question that would involve comparing two different areas of combat (neither simple nor conclusive).


It is a DPS loss for a warrior to press the demoralizing shout button. I don't think it means they are doing it wrong.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Mehnalas » Fri May 08, 2009 8:19 am

If I recall insect swarm was one of the tools used for the 5 man gruul with the rogue tank, to keep him over the avoidance cap.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Candiru » Fri May 08, 2009 9:16 am

Tank taking 6% less damage >>> a bit of extra damage to insect swarm!

Hunters loose quite a lot of mana and DPS keeping up the sting, while moonkins loose only the difference in DPS between the glyph and the next best glyph.

Moonkins with the glyph get made to replace it with a random druid glyph from the guild bank if they have it in Ulduar. 3% miss is HUGE.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Racerover » Fri May 08, 2009 9:17 am

kurros wrote:It is a DPS loss for a warrior to press the demoralizing shout button. I don't think it means they are doing it wrong.


Think outside the box. Tank dies because he's getting hit harder than he would be if demo shout was up. Boss turns and nukes the raid. Dead raid members do zero dps. Team work and raid synergy is what makes boss kills smooth.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Ascendant » Fri May 08, 2009 9:34 am

The moonkin doesn't care if you have 3% more avoidance, nor should he. In most cases, that avoidance will go to waste where the extra dps wouldn't. Only when taking extreme incoming melee damage from a boss is it ever debatable. Also, you can't expect your moonkin to be around all the time to put up the debuff. I had this debate with one of our feral druids who speced out of infected wounds because one of our dps DKs have the improved icy touch talent. This is also why I hate relying on warriors for the AP debuff.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Candiru » Fri May 08, 2009 9:49 am

The moonkin should care if you have 3% more miss...

On something like Vexaz, 3% miss is HUGE for keeping the tank alive. 6% less damage on the tank, and a reduced chance of 3 hits landing in a row.

Just as a holy paladin cares about imp.BoM and +3% crit to the raid, so does a moonkin care about less damage on the tank.

Much like warlocks often end up casting Curse of Weakness if you lack a warrior/druid to do FF and demoshout even though it costs them DPS.

DPS classes aren't trying to maximise their own DPS on the meters, they are trying to get the boss down (idealy). If a ret paladin drops a couple of GCDs to sacred shield and flash of light the tank to keep him up and looses a bit of DPS, I think most people would congratulate rather than scold him...

Glyph of insect swarm is just bad. (unless you have 2 moonkins)
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby toothdecaykills » Fri May 08, 2009 10:22 am

Glyph of Insect Swarm increases a Druid's effectiveness in a given role. Although losing 30% of the damage on a staple ability may not invalidate that role, I see no reason to force his hand either way. Sometimes it really comes down to the player. If a Boomkin is not performing well you bet your ass I'm going to replace him regardless of whether he brought the miss chance debuff or not. Nobody in my raids has a guaranteed spot because of a buff they can provide.

To ask a Boomkin to drop their strongest glyph choice for a debuff that will matter very little is just like putting yourself in that situation. Tell me, would you drop DP or SoV glyph in order to help that Boomkin's damage? Remember, that miss actually saving you is probably just as likely as the Druid's damage being what saves you the raid from an inevitable death to a soft enrage.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Wolvar » Fri May 08, 2009 10:41 am

I don't think anyone is bringing a boomkin for their dps. It's for their utility. (Crit aura, brez, innervate, tranquility, hit rating) 3% more miss is just another utility option that synergizes the raid.

Remember, that miss actually saving you is probably just as likely as the Druid's damage being what saves you the raid from an inevitable death to a soft enrage.


Not even close.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Ascendant » Fri May 08, 2009 11:48 am

Candiru wrote:The moonkin should care if you have 3% more miss...

On something like Vexaz, 3% miss is HUGE for keeping the tank alive. 6% less damage on the tank, and a reduced chance of 3 hits landing in a row.


I think you are overvaluing avoidance. Sure, on Vezax, avoidance is amazing and the 3% miss is probably justified, but on many fights, it really isn't going to make a difference. The only fights where the avoidance is necessary are fights where the tank is at a high risk of dying to incoming boss hits. I don't know how good your healers are, but in my guild, the only fights where that happens are Hodir and Thorim.

I am not trying to argue that 3% avoidance is worse than the extra dps, I am arguing that it isn't a necessity. We should not be forcing moonkins to provide 3% miss and we sure as hell should not be choosing gear expecting it.

Wolvar wrote:I don't think anyone is bringing a boomkin for their dps. It's for their utility. (Crit aura, brez, innervate, tranquility, hit rating) 3% more miss is just another utility option that synergizes the raid.

You don't bring any class solely for dps. Moonkins are great dps if you have a good one, and they also happen to provide a lot of useful raid buffs.
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Re: Insect swarm and block cap?

Postby Wolvar » Fri May 08, 2009 12:09 pm

You are right, that's why I didn't use the word "soley". Boomkins bring more utility and less dps than most dps classes was my point. 3% miss just enhances thier value to the raid moreso than the (less than) 1% of overall damage that they lose without the glyph.

Anyway it's down to their choice, or the raidleader's choice... but it helps significantly on physical damage progression kills.
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