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Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby moduspwnens » Thu May 21, 2009 9:34 am

Ghostcrawler wrote:Block was a fine stat back when bosses could do Crushing Blows. In their absence, it does feel like it has slipped as a source of mitigation. We (the developers and the community) were worried at the launch of Lich King that block would make warriors the best tanks, paladins second, and everyone else far behind. In retrospect we should have been more focused on the cooldowns and number of hits a tank could take in a row.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/1722303 ... -this.html


Not 100% relative to the discussion, but someone brought up avoidance vs. block, and it's worth noting that they aren't quite happy with how block turned out versus cooldowns.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby caerdydd » Thu May 21, 2009 10:13 am

Maybe what i am going to ask is not relative to the discussion but could anyone tell me how does mitigation work? I mean by that there is not point of having more than 100% (on 83+ mobs) mitigation.

Let's say that we have 55% avoidance (the reste being 45% block) and we would like to use a dogde trinket (lets say 200 dodge for 15s) So during 15s we'll be over 100%. How does the game take care of these extra %? Does it take the extra block % off?

In this case, I might think of changing few gems.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby The Puppet Master » Thu May 21, 2009 10:28 am

Yes, extra block percentage is always the first to go off the combat table after reaching 102.4%.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby caerdydd » Thu May 21, 2009 10:34 am

Tanks a lot.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Nadir » Thu May 21, 2009 3:02 pm

Dalithe wrote:Firm believer paladins are the best tanks

OK, I'll bite. Name one hard mode Ulduar boss fight where Paladins are considered by the hard core raiding community as the best main tank.

We're essentially warriors without a last stand, and we have a worthless 4 set compared to their -20% magic reduction on shield block.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby majiben » Thu May 21, 2009 3:05 pm

Hodir
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Nadir » Thu May 21, 2009 3:21 pm

Majiben wrote:Hodir

I would agree that we're good at Hodir. But given that warriors also scale well due to Vigilance, it's not clear cut that we're the best. They're able to toss it on a mage pumping out 15,000 TPS as well as take the extra damage (crit?) from storm cloud. We benefit only from the latter.

DKs also muddy up the waters again as they have a cooldown rotation to make the few frozen blows you will eat during the 3 minutes a joke. With the reduced amount of healers you're forced to run with in hard mode, this is significant.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby The Puppet Master » Thu May 21, 2009 4:42 pm

Nadir wrote:
Majiben wrote:Hodir

I would agree that we're good at Hodir. But given that warriors also scale well due to Vigilance, it's not clear cut that we're the best. They're able to toss it on a mage pumping out 15,000 TPS as well as take the extra damage (crit?) from storm cloud. We benefit only from the latter.


How about the debuff that increases spell damage taken by 50%? Those 15000 tps mages won't be that much ahead of you, whereas a warrior would have a hard time even with vigilance. :)
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Equitas » Thu May 21, 2009 5:19 pm

The Puppet Master wrote:
Nadir wrote:
Majiben wrote:Hodir

I would agree that we're good at Hodir. But given that warriors also scale well due to Vigilance, it's not clear cut that we're the best. They're able to toss it on a mage pumping out 15,000 TPS as well as take the extra damage (crit?) from storm cloud. We benefit only from the latter.


How about the debuff that increases spell damage taken by 50%? Those 15000 tps mages won't be that much ahead of you, whereas a warrior would have a hard time even with vigilance. :)


We downed hodir hardmodes twice now. I tanked the first time, warrior the second time, its really not that hard for either class, ofcourse its fucking pro when the paladin tanks :D

As for Hardmodes being an entirely different thing.

If you really care about whether or not to wear avoidance/EH for normal modes clearly youre doing something terribly wrong or your healers just plain suck end of story here really. There are fights you cannot survive without cooldowns, most hardmodes involve cooldown rotations. Thorim is un-fucking-doable without a cooldown rotation imo.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Vedge » Sun May 24, 2009 3:56 am

I doubt that vigiliance on a mage would give a warrior the edge over the paladin tank on Hodir. I never saw any of our warrior tanks(i go with 2 aside of me) put out more than 8k tps there(due to crits), while my tps with 24k SoR crits and 11k HoR crits hangs about 10-12k.

Does warrior tps scale that well on Hodir as our spells?
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Kaienn » Sun May 24, 2009 3:38 pm

Hard Mode IC.

Steelbreaker is a joke with a paladin tank. I dispel myself and then while we kill Steelbreaker, I have someone else focus me for dispels and I follow the rotation to a T (Substituting Exorcism [Glyphed] for Consecrate, and Hammer of Wrath for Hammer of the Righteous @ 20%) and put out like 9k+ dps.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Varmin » Mon May 25, 2009 4:33 am

Frost DKs seem to do the best at hodir, pumping out loads of magic dmg and scale well with haste of moon beams.
Though paladins do just fine, way ahead of warriors/druids.

I'd agree paladins are quite nice for SB on hardmode IC. Just dispel yourself and do some nice DPS with the debuff.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Salovia » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:01 am

Referring to the first page of posts or so, specifically the XT fight:

My guild is a 10-man guild, we've done XT a few times now. Everytime I've done XT, I gear for EH and reach around 38k without a priest using my Monarch Crab and my Gossemer. I stay around 545 def, and have something like 23% dodge and 19% parry - I can't be specific because I'm not really sure. When I gear this way, I die. Every time we've killed XT, I've been in my avoidance set using Repelling Charge and Valor Medal and swapping out some other pieces. With the avoidance trinkets and a few pieces of gear, I sit around 35k and and have (according to the avoidance macro floating around) 64% avoidance.

As I understand it for the XT fight, theoretically it's better to have a larger health pool than higher avoidance because taking two hits in a worst case scenario can be survivable with more HP, whereas two hits in a worst case scenario in an avoidance set would likely not be. I'm willing to grant that luck or RNG is playing a factor, and my experiences definitely seem counter-intuitive.

I avoid block where I can for this fight, regardless of gearing for sta or avoidance. My armor hovers around 25k I believe, but I don't know the exact number.

So what's the deal? Should I write that off to just having a few lucky downs? We run with a resto druid, resto shaman and a holy pally, if you think that might matter.
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Dobbelsteen » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:24 am

Nadir wrote:
Dalithe wrote:Firm believer paladins are the best tanks

OK, I'll bite. Name one hard mode Ulduar boss fight where Paladins are considered by the hard core raiding community as the best main tank.

We're essentially warriors without a last stand, and we have a worthless 4 set compared to their -20% magic reduction on shield block.

Bring the player, not the class...
I'm the favoured tank for all of the hardmodes we attempt, both on 10 and 25 man because out of our tank team, I'm simply the "best" so to say. My guild doesn't care if a DK takes 3% less damage on x fight, or a warrior can taunt more due to vigilance or whatever. I'm the most reliable tank, so I get picked to tank it. (not that "maintank" 24/7, I let a warrior tank Aur, a druid tank freya, etc..)
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Re: Ulduar Tanking - HP vs Avoidance

Postby Conaan! » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:25 pm

Kaienn wrote:Hard Mode IC.

Steelbreaker is a joke with a paladin tank. I dispel myself and then while we kill Steelbreaker, I have someone else focus me for dispels and I follow the rotation to a T (Substituting Exorcism [Glyphed] for Consecrate, and Hammer of Wrath for Hammer of the Righteous @ 20%) and put out like 9k+ dps.



i call bull, 9k dps on steelbreaker? you would have to be standing in the rune to get close to that, and even then, i doubt you are hitting 9k, much less over it (OH SNAP pun intended)
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