BV and Armor Equivalence

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BV and Armor Equivalence

Postby Arees » Tue May 05, 2009 9:45 am

I've seen people here before ask how much armor the block value we have is comparable to when talking about druids and death knights. The answer given is almost always that it depends. It depends on how much armor you already have, and how hard you are being hit for. I found this nifty calculator today that you plug all the variables into and it tells you that 100 armor = X block value with all those variables you entered.

for example, I can enter 28000 armor, a level 83 mob, 15000 hits (post mitigation - it tells you what it would be pre-mitigation), and find out that IN THIS SPECIFIC SCENARIO 100 armor is equal to 33.5 BV. Now lets say I have 1200 BV. Assuming we block every hit, that is the same as having a static 3582 armor.

Now lets say I get buffed with kings, gotw, and the dk horn and my block value is now closer to 1800. Again, assuming we block every hit, that is a static 5373 armor.

Here is the calculator

I'm no expert on druid/dk tanking, so is the difference in armor between us and them roughly 5k?

*edit*
Something I was just noticing while playing with the calculator is that as armor goes up, the relative value of BV increases. The more armor we get, the higher the percent of damage block value will reduce of an attack. BUT, the relative value decreases at a much faster rate as the hits get bigger.

I've never been big on theorycrafting. Is this what everyone has been referring to when they talk about how bad block scales?
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Re: BV and Armor Equivalence

Postby Nadir » Tue May 05, 2009 10:09 am

People say it scales poorly because Ulduar 25 bosses have the ability to instant-gib or two to three shot a tank. Back in Naxx we were able to block 10-100% of the damage depending on the boss.
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Re: BV and Armor Equivalence

Postby Spectrum » Tue May 05, 2009 11:49 am

Nadir wrote:People say it scales poorly because Ulduar 25 bosses have the ability to instant-gib or two to three shot a tank. Back in Naxx we were able to block 10-100% of the damage depending on the boss.


We're still blocking 10%, and if you're block capped that's 10% of all the physical bosses's hits. If I remember correctly, in 10-man Ulduar you're taking hits for 12k-17k in most situations (things have been nerfed to be closer to the lower end now). In my EH gear with HoW and GotW and Kings I run a bit over 1.5k block value without the libram up in my EH gear. That means I'm blocking a little more than 10% every hit. Not bad.

It's also multiplicative with armor, meaning that if you had 60% damage reduction from armor you'd only need 4% more reduction from armor to decrease damage by 10% (10% of 100 -60 = 40 is 4%). If you play with the numbers you can figure out how much physical mitigation you really have for comparison with other tanks.

With the way Blizzard has been playing things, we're all really damn close with good gearing.
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Re: BV and Armor Equivalence

Postby ael- » Tue May 05, 2009 12:45 pm

I guess the point is that as bosses hit harder, armor will scale better. But the tradeoff is never armor vs. BV; the tradeoff is BV vs. avoidance. On a boss that can 3 hit you, you're probably better off making sure you never take 3 hits in a row through dodge or parry.

I also look at it from the perspective of a boss that hits for 15k: if you're blocking for 10% of his hits, block is 1/10 as effective as dodge or parry. But from an item budget perspective, block is about 1/4 the price of dodge and 1/5 the price of parry. When you're blocking close to 25% or 50% of a hit, it makes sense. Any less, and you're better off stacking avoidance and stamina (you'll get more total mitigation over the course of a fight from dodge OR parry.)

I'm not saying BV is terribad or anything; but avoid it on bosses. As long as you're capped (which is really easy to do with minimal block rating, honestly) you should be fine. Let it come naturally through an odd piece of tier gear, LoO or strength.
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Re: BV and Armor Equivalence

Postby Spectrum » Tue May 05, 2009 2:52 pm

ael- wrote:I guess the point is that as bosses hit harder, armor will scale better. But the tradeoff is never armor vs. BV; the tradeoff is BV vs. avoidance. On a boss that can 3 hit you, you're probably better off making sure you never take 3 hits in a row through dodge or parry.


That would be nice, but good luck. This will never happen unless you get to 100% avoidance, which will never happen. You always have to assume you might take too many hits in a row. 2 hits in a row happens a lot, even at high levels of avoidance. 3 is more rare, but it will happen and if you can't survive you will die. What you want in this situation is EH, not avoidance.

ael- wrote:I also look at it from the perspective of a boss that hits for 15k: if you're blocking for 10% of his hits, block is 1/10 as effective as dodge or parry. But from an item budget perspective, block is about 1/4 the price of dodge and 1/5 the price of parry. When you're blocking close to 25% or 50% of a hit, it makes sense. Any less, and you're better off stacking avoidance and stamina (you'll get more total mitigation over the course of a fight from dodge OR parry.)


Sorry, did you ever take a class in mathematics? You're comparing boxxy and bacon here. Both are awesome but there is no meaningful comparison. Are you saying 1 point of block is as good as 1% dodge or parry? Sweet, I'll grab 100 BV in gear and nothing will be able to hurt me! Oh, did you mean that having 10% blocked is only worth 10% of being completely unhittable? That's the only reasonable thing I can come up with and it makes no sense. In terms of average damage, if you had 50% avoidance than blocking 10% would be the same as 5% more avoidance. Of course, you're going to be blocking anyway, so maybe you mean in terms of itemization points? That's much more complicated. Also, in terms of EH BV is infinitely better than avoidance because avoidance doesn't matter for effective health.

Please, go read over the math stickies.

ael- wrote:I'm not saying BV is terribad or anything; but avoid it on bosses. As long as you're capped (which is really easy to do with minimal block rating, honestly) you should be fine. Let it come naturally through an odd piece of tier gear, LoO or strength.


We're not even talking about that. We're talking about how we should compare our armor + BV with the larger physical mitigation numbers of other tanks. We will always have block value and we will almost always be block capped in a raid situation. So the question is, which tank has better total physical effective health? What shortcuts can we use to calculate that? Once again, it has nothing to do with avoidance, and it has nothing to do with picking items for bosses at this point.

Sorry, but please read the rest of the thread before you post.
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Re: BV and Armor Equivalence

Postby Ascendant » Wed May 06, 2009 9:50 am

So using your calculator there:

8 str = 6.5 block value (with kings and talents)

If you have 29000 armor, and the boss hits for 18000 post armor effect,
8 agi = 17.6 armor (with kings) = 6.9344 block value

If you have 30000 armor, and the boss hits for 18000 still,
8 agi = 6.776 block value

At 31000 armor,
8 agi = 6.6352 block value

At 32000 armor,
8 agi = 6.4944 block value (finally below strength)

if this calculator is correct, then 8 agi is slightly more EH than 8 str before inspiration (for bosses that hit around 18k) and a bit less after. Then you have to consider how many bosses hit harder than 18k, and how many hit less. I believe hodir, vezax, and deconstructor all hit harder than 18k at these armor levels, just to name a few.
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Re: BV and Armor Equivalence

Postby Arees » Wed May 06, 2009 2:01 pm

I don't remember now where I found this calculator at... but going by the url its done by rehfeld, and isn't that the guy that makes the pally dps spreadsheets?
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