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Def cap and block cap

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Igrado » Wed May 13, 2009 6:52 am

@OP

gmf1 wrote:You can't keep holy shield up all the time, so if it was possible its still not a good idea.


Varmin wrote:There are plenty of times when your shield will be used up, you will be stunned, have to move and turn your back, etc where you could be crit.
Keep 540.


Invisusira wrote:540 is not optional.


Invisusira has spoken.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Miessi » Wed May 13, 2009 2:36 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:Critical hits are higher on the table than blocks. If you are block capped, you can take an unblocked critical hit.

The reason why you end up with a lot of people wondering if 540 is optional is because a geared tank can take a crit if they are topped off. Also, <1% chance to be crit means that it's unlikely to cause a wipe immediately. It's still top priority to be uncrittable, but it isn't as blatantly obvious as people have come to think of it.

Closing thought: I'd trade a 1% chance to be crit to double my HP.


Please don't come with misinformation. If you push hits of the attack table ("block capped") you can't be critted. Period.

So your second paragraph is also just wrong, people are wondering if they can skip out on defense IF they have pushed hits and crits off the attack table with holy shield up. And the usual answer is always: You can't always guarantee that Holy Shield is up. Noone is ever arguing that you can eat a crit and be fine. If they are, they should step into Ulduar instead of Naxx.

Until you get past 102,4% without Holy Shield 540 isn't optional.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Worldie » Wed May 13, 2009 3:42 pm

Miessi wrote:
Until you get past 102,4% without Holy Shield 540 isn't optional.

Even there, a Stun or Disarm effect would make you crittable again.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Fri May 15, 2009 3:11 am

Please, show me the bosses in Ulduar able to stun, disarm, polymorph you into a rabbit or rename your character Britney.

I mean, concerns about moving and so are relevant, fancy "WHAT IF ???" aren't. As far as I know, you can't get stunned in Ulduar except by trashmobs (for which you can always switch for a defense trinket for ex), one of the Elders in Conservatory of Life, and Thorim arena event.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby amh » Fri May 15, 2009 3:20 am

By all means, tank bosses with less than 540 defense if you want to. Don´t come complaining here when you die from a crit, though :)
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Fri May 15, 2009 3:21 am

I won't, some valuable arguments have convinced me.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby majiben » Fri May 15, 2009 4:15 am

Sophistie wrote:Please, show me the bosses in Ulduar able to stun, disarm, polymorph you into a rabbit or rename your character Britney.

I mean, concerns about moving and so are relevant, fancy "WHAT IF ???" aren't. As far as I know, you can't get stunned in Ulduar except by trashmobs (for which you can always switch for a defense trinket for ex), one of the Elders in Conservatory of Life, and Thorim arena event.

Why ignore the rest of the situations you could be crit in? Ulduar has the following:

Dulled or slow reactions:
General
Ignis
Razorscale

Burn through HS charges:
Auryia
Freya

Turn your back to them:
Iron council
Mimiron

Mana constraints:
General

Not block capped:
Hordir
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Fri May 15, 2009 10:35 am

Majiben wrote:Dulled or slow reactions:
General
Ignis
Razorscale


I don't understand :(

Majiben wrote:Burn through HS charges:
Auryia
Freya


I agree. Both these fights often leave me without HS during few seconds, and I wouldn't roll the Redoubt dice.

Majiben wrote:Turn your back to them:
Iron council
Mimiron


Iron Council : agree
Mimiron : the only time you may have to turn your back to him while he's hitting is in p4 to avoid laser barrage. But you only need to jump through him to get it done; when he casts his shock blast, I'm pretty sure he stops meleeing (though I'll have to check this). You turn back to the junk bots adds, however the def minimum is easily reached vs these 80s.

Majiben wrote:Mana constraints:
General


I don't feel constrainted by mana when encountering Vezax, even with 1/2 spirit. attunment. And even though I'd refresh holy shield over consecration.

Majiben wrote:Not block capped:
Hordir


I'm doing Hodir in standard gear (no FR gear), if you're talking about this !
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby majiben » Fri May 15, 2009 11:24 am

Sophistie wrote:
Majiben wrote:Dulled or slow reactions:
General
Ignis
Razorscale
I don't understand :(
Majiben wrote:Turn your back to them:
Iron council
Mimiron
Iron Council : agree
Mimiron : the only time you may have to turn your back to him while he's hitting is in p4 to avoid laser barrage. But you only need to jump through him to get it done; when he casts his shock blast, I'm pretty sure he stops meleeing (though I'll have to check this). You turn back to the junk bots adds, however the def minimum is easily reached vs these 80s.
Majiben wrote:Mana constraints:
General
I don't feel constrainted by mana when encountering Vezax, even with 1/2 spirit. attunment. And even though I'd refresh holy shield over consecration.
Majiben wrote:Not block capped:
Hordir
I'm doing Hodir in standard gear (no FR gear), if you're talking about this !
The first three require kiting to some degree and kiting can mess up your rotation or dull your reaction times. Just takes one half second late refresh to put you at risk.

Mimiron can require you to turn and run from him in the event of his AoE on phase 1. It is possible to do it too early, especially if you are stressed by a just finished plasma blast or mine layer.

With general, you would never willingly trade holy shield for consecrate but considering the large cost of consecrate you could could burn the 996 mana when you have barely over 1k mana which if you weren't looking at your mana numerically rather than at the highlighted abilities then you could find yourself unable to recover the ~400 mana for holyshield in time.

You can do Hodir without FrR on a tank in 10 man but don't expect to be able to do so on 25.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby PsiVen » Fri May 15, 2009 1:52 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:Critical hits are higher on the table than blocks. If you are block capped, you can take an unblocked critical hit.

agnara wrote:No, Block is prioritized ahead of critt. Miss => Dodge => Parry => (Glancing blow, only againts NPCs) => Block => Critt => Crush => hit

Miessi wrote:Please don't come with misinformation. If you push hits of the attack table ("block capped") you can't be critted. Period.


I'd be interested to see a proof of this either way, as I'm not sure it's been determined and I'm quite sure neither side has merit without proof.

agnara wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:The base 400 Defense Skill doesn't count to the additional block/parry/dodge, 400 is considered the baseline for a level 80 character. When you're at 340 Defense skill, you're essentially the same as a level 68 player to the boss (well, without crushes), meaning he has about an 8% chance of critting you. When you're at 540 defense, you're essentially the same as a level 108 player to the boss, so he has no chance of critting you.


As far as I know you should get crushed by the boss, but I haven't tanked the boss yet so it might be that they just disabled Crushes for it.


Yes, theoretically he should crush the hell out of you. Thorim has disabled crushing blows though, so a feral druid can indeed Barkskin glyph through UBS safely.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby majiben » Fri May 15, 2009 2:00 pm

mispost
Last edited by majiben on Fri May 15, 2009 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Panzerdin » Fri May 15, 2009 2:18 pm

PsiVen wrote:
theothersteve7 wrote:Critical hits are higher on the table than blocks. If you are block capped, you can take an unblocked critical hit.

agnara wrote:No, Block is prioritized ahead of critt. Miss => Dodge => Parry => (Glancing blow, only againts NPCs) => Block => Critt => Crush => hit

Miessi wrote:Please don't come with misinformation. If you push hits of the attack table ("block capped") you can't be critted. Period.


I'd be interested to see a proof of this either way, as I'm not sure it's been determined and I'm quite sure neither side has merit without proof.



It's easy to test, just get to 102.4% without 540 def and see if you get crit or not.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Fri May 15, 2009 6:22 pm

Majiben wrote:You can do Hodir without FrR on a tank in 10 man but don't expect to be able to do so on 25.


Actually I've already tanked (and killed) him in 25, in hard mode, with 3 healers in the raid. Without any frR gear.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Nadir » Fri May 15, 2009 10:54 pm

On Hodir hard mode in 25 threat is more of an issue than tank survivability since the fight is a bit less than 3 minutes in duration. Stacking frost resist would be poor strategy. Survivability on the ~3 frozen blows can be covered through internal/external cool downs. Your gearing focus should be on keeping Hodir from curb stomping the mages that are pushing out 13-15k DPS.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Buttercupcake » Sun May 24, 2009 4:38 am

I feel like I'm probably just going to be echoing most of the posts in here, but until you can guarantee unhittable -without- holy shield, you need to be uncrittable. You cannot guarantee that you will have 100 percent holy shield uptime. Even supposing it were theoretically possible - even supposing there are -no- bosses, mobs, any situations which can disrupt your holy shield, you CANNOT guarantee human error/reaction time. Supposing you're even 1 second slow on your rotation, that's 1 second of holy shield not being up, and you being crittable.

It doesn't matter how slim the chance is of you being critted, it's still a chance, and if you can easily rectify that but choose not to, then that's simply irresponsible tanking. You have an obligation to your healer to be uncrittable.
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