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Def cap and block cap

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Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Mon May 04, 2009 6:25 pm

Hello,

(first of all, please don't pay too much attention to spelling and/or grammar mistakes since english is not my native language)

After several weeks now playing as a tankadin in ulduar, I find actually quite hard to keep my defense rating above the cap. It's far from impossible, and I happen to switch gems very often to keep my def rating > 689.
Still, it is a (though marginal) loss of HP, since these gems (and even some enchants) could be replaced by pure stam gems.

I've been running a few tests with a friend of mine with very low expertise and high crit rate, in pure block rating stuff (for test purposes only, I don't use to wear pure block stuff since I'm already far above the block cap with raidbuffs up in usual EH gear).
I couldn't parse a single crit in the log as far as I kept holy shield up (and thus, the block cap).


Am I completely wrong, or can crit be pushed off the hit table by the usual 102.4 combined void rule, even without being def-caped ?
EDIT : I know it does, the question should be reformulated :
Have I missed something or is it quite safe to tank a boss without being def caped as far as Holy shield is always up ?

If so, I'm seriously considering the option of keeping a quite low def (aka critable without block cap) to raise my stam (and so far EH), assuming that I will always be block capped in raiding conditions - except of course for the very few encounters involving stuns or any kind of avoidance loss, or ofc multiple targets tanking where holy shield can't get a 100% uptime.

Thanks in advance for answering me with facts and/or relevant arguments !


PS : Just in case you'd ask : http://armory.wow-europe.com/character- ... =Sophistie - i've been tanking all the bosses my guild encountered in ulduar so far, that is all "weak" modes and a few hard modes in both 10 and 25 men (iron council, thorim, etc)
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Invisusira » Mon May 04, 2009 6:53 pm

540 is not optional.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby badgermonkey » Mon May 04, 2009 7:45 pm

Invisusira wrote:540 is not optional.


This, and also, there is no such thing as a defense cap. There is no cap.

EDITED a bit out, I was wrong -.-
Last edited by badgermonkey on Tue May 05, 2009 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby gmf1 » Mon May 04, 2009 11:56 pm

I don't think you can block and be crit there 2 different things. There has been some talk of this, there is some thinking that you can push crits off without 540, but even if that was correct, you can't keep holy shield up all the time, so if it was possible its still not a good idea.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Tue May 05, 2009 1:00 am

Thanks for answering my message but please answer the question !


"ASSERTION WITH NO ARGUMENT" doesn't help me that much.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Tue May 05, 2009 1:03 am

Also, he can still crit if you block. Your BV of roughly 2k won't stop you dying immediately.


Unless I missed something, he can't.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby amh » Tue May 05, 2009 1:04 am

Sophistie wrote:Have I missed something or is it quite safe to tank a boss without being def caped as far as Holy shield is always up ?


It is. You´ll have to decide for yourself if it´s worth it.
I used to play a paladin.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Argali » Tue May 05, 2009 1:41 am

The whole point of the 540 def minimum is to that you won't get critted no matter what happens. Doesn't matter if you get stunned, silenced, get hit in the back while moving.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Varmin » Tue May 05, 2009 1:51 am

There are plenty of times when your shield will be used up, you will be stunned, have to move and turn your back, etc where you could be crit.
Keep 540.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Tue May 05, 2009 2:11 am

Of course when saying "defense cap" I mean "uncrittable cap". I don't focus on avoidance stats, though that's not the present topic !
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Argali » Tue May 05, 2009 2:17 am

Go on and go below 540 then, if you really really think you can keep holy shield up 100%, never get stunned, silenced, or get hit in the back while moving.

Theoretically, there's nothing wrong with being below 540 as long as you're unhitable.

However, theory and actual gameplay is different.

Just don't complain if you get crittted. You reap what you sow.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Sophistie » Tue May 05, 2009 2:22 am

I guess the "getting hit while moving" is relevant. I can't reasonably assume I will NEVER get hit from behind during these fights.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby ulushnar » Tue May 05, 2009 2:49 am

If people are a little terse, you'll have to forgive them, but this question has been around since patch 2.3 in some form or another. (Probably before as well, but all that low-defense badge/ZA gear seemed to make it more common).

Mobs that fear, silence or just chew through your shield that fast all open you to crits unless you have Defense at the minimum. Sure these things are rare and you might only eat a crit or two a night, but that's a crit or two you could easily have avoided. And efficently mitigating damage is half the point of being a tank in the first place.
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Nadir » Tue May 05, 2009 5:17 am

You don't always have a choice about being above 540 defense. I believe this mechanic may be pertinent to the tanking strategy of every Paladin in Ulduar.

Every so often Thorim will hit you with an Unbalancing Strike. This lowers your Defense Skill by 200 for 15 seconds. The question is: can Thorim critically hit a Paladin at 102.4% block+avoidance? A secondary question would be: how high do you need to stack block+avoidance so that you're still at or above 102.4% block+avoidance once you lose 200 defense skill?

If the answer is yes to the first question, then Paladins can expect to be main tanking this sucker on hard mode until Blizzard changes the system so that blocked hits can critically hit. No other tanking class would be able to cheese his second most dangerous tank gib. The first being unbalancing strike and a melee hit in the same second (approximately 30k+12 to 15k).

On the second question, I assume at 540 defense skill you would lose 5.6% miss, 5.6% parry, 5.6% dodge, and 5.6% block during Unbalancing Strike. Would this would mean you would need 124.8% avoidance+block to push crit off the attack table for Thorim?
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Re: Def cap and block cap

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue May 05, 2009 5:40 am

1 defense skill gives you 0.04% of block, miss, dodge and parry (disregarding diminishing returns) or 0.16% towards the block cap per point.

0.16%*200 = 32%

If you're over 130% avoidance+block, sure you could solotank it. But I don't think many people are at this time.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
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