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Recommended stats for UD

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Recommended stats for UD

Postby Phantoom » Mon May 04, 2009 8:27 am

Hi all,

I been trawling these forums for quite some time now, taking advice from all sorts of threads (thanks a lot for the hard work put into these btw). I'm one of the MTs in my guild and the only Pala tank, with full Nax25 gear and some UD gear. We have the first 5 bosses in UD25 down and on farm.

The reason in this thread is that i just wanted some opinions on the recommended stats i should be getting for tanking in UD25. Nax25 didn't really matter as long as you had basic gear, the whole instance could be facerolled, wheras im sure you'd all agree UD is a lot different. My current stats are:

HP: 32800 HP unbuffed
Dodge: 20.12%
Parry: 19.86%
Block: 22.57% (rating 195, stops 1221 dmg)
This gives me, with holy shield up, 103.25 avoidance, so i've hit the block cap.
Expertise: 30 (With glyph)
Hit: 120

Now i can see that i need to be working on my hit as the cap is 295 i think and a few of my abilities miss sometimes (latest WWS report showed 5-7% miss throughout the raid) Expertise is about 6 over the soft cap. Dodge and Parry looks to me quite good. As for Block I still don't know how useful it is as i keep getting mixed messages. Some say leave Block, if you can avoid an attack its better than mitigating a little percentage of the attack.

My questions
Hit: What sort of hit rating should i be aiming for?
Expertise: Should i keep it as it is or drop the extra 6?
Dodge and Parry: Do i need to improve on these stats? Or drop some and work on another stat?
Block Rating: I'm at the block cap, do i keep stacking block rating or is it now useless?
Block Value: Do i need to be stacking this as this is the Palas main stat? Or should i evenly spread it out between parry/dodge/block value?
Recommended stats: What values should i be looking at when tanking UD25, are my current stats too low, too high, or about right?

I look forward to your replies, thanks for reading guys :)

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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Jasari » Mon May 04, 2009 8:39 am

The short answer is that you should have different sets of gear for different purposes.

For information about threat stats see:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... 75#p414575

For survival stats, it will all depend on the encounter, but general rules:

    Dodge > Defense > Parry for pure avoidance

    Block Rating > Defense > Dodge > Parry for reaching the block cap

    Block Value is fantastic on trash and adds, but doesn't scale with incoming damage so it isn't as valuable against raid bosses.

    Never ever ever never ever gem parry.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Salamandra » Mon May 04, 2009 8:45 am

Block Value isn't fantastic on Ulduar trash. Apart from Hodir trash block gear is decisively not the way to go on anything in Ulduar. Each mob in Ulduar trash hits as harder or harder than almost every boss in Naxx.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby ael- » Mon May 04, 2009 8:59 am

Personally I prefer dodge and parry over block on boss fights.

I have a set with 22% block and ~1600 block value, and I have a set where (raid buffed) I'm around 30% dodge, 25% parry and 40k health. The avoidance set probably has about 15% block and 1000 BV base (i.e. without redoubt, HS or LoO procced.)

The block set gets used when the mobs hit for ~5k. That way I'm blocking a good % of every hit; at least enough to make block stacking work well. There's kind of a sweet spot around 10 man Naxx/heroic 5 man levels of damage where block is really, really good for the item budget. It steadily gets worse until you hit the end of Naxx, where it becomes better to use other defensive stats.

The general rule is that if the mob can hit you for 10k or more, block is almost worthless compared to avoidance/EH. This describes almost every boss in Ulduar. It is still useful to have a block set for trash tanking, but you'll see warriors and paladins largely go "eh, I guess I'll take it if it doesn't count against my DKP" to block gear. Pieces with def/dodge/parry are highly prized.

I'd really like to see block changed a bit to make it more valuable on big boss encounters, though it would probably make prot way, way too powerful in PvP if that were the case (already I can annihilate any physical damage class in a 1v1 duel.)

Edit: Oh, also, if you're having trouble staying alive, don't be worried about dropping hit and expertise for dodge, parry or stamina. Hit and expertise are almost exclusively threat stats, and while yeah, it sucks to miss, as long as you can hold aggro you should be fine. I know these boards tend to value threat stats highly, but your job as a tank is to stay alive and hold aggro, in that priority. A dead tank doesn't hold aggro very well, where a threat challenged one has other tools at his disposal (misdirect, HoSalv, etc.)
Last edited by ael- on Mon May 04, 2009 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Nadir » Mon May 04, 2009 9:05 am

I disagree with Salamandra on stacking block value for trash in certain circumstances. For example, I was full blocking or mitigating 50%+ percent of the damage Thorim trash hits and arena mobs. I imagine the numbers are similar for Freya trash and the 3-pack mobs during the actual fight. If you're on Construct duty during Ignis, full block value gear means that you can solo kill Constructs once they become molten. For something like Hodir hard mode, we're probably going to have to stack full threat gear in order to keep him from curb stomping DPS that's pulling 12k+ per second.

For crazy motherfucking miniboss trash (Magma guys near Ignis, squid dudes on the way to general), I agree, go for effective health.

For the OP:
Based on your armory I'd make the following changes to up your hit: switch to hit food (+40), save up conquest emblems for a Shieldwarder's Girdle (+56), and switch the weapon enchant from Bladewarding to Accuracy (+25). I generally try to stay between 200-220 hit from gear so that I'm nearly hit capped when eating food.

My base stats are:
HP 33989
Dodge: 24.10%
Parry: 18.87%
Block: 14.33%
Hit rating: 210
Expertise: 22
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Phantoom » Mon May 04, 2009 12:42 pm

Thanks for the advice guys

I think ill dump the block then when fighting bosses and concentrate on stacking def/dodge/parry. Only problem i got now is if i replace some gear im gonna lose a lot of block rating which contributes to the block cap a lot. Is the 102.4% avoidance cap absolutely necessary or not?
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Nadir » Mon May 04, 2009 12:57 pm

I don't find unhitable status absolutely necessary, especially if you're only 2-3% below the cap. You'll take an extra ~1200 damage on 2-3% of all attacks against you depending on raid buffs and gear. I don't know the average uptime on redoubt, but I'd guess it'd cut down that 2-3% to 0-1%.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Phantoom » Mon May 04, 2009 1:10 pm

Ive just swapped some gear around and my stats are close to yours, but my avoidance is 98%. It seems i have to have quite a bit of bloack rating in my gear just to make sure i'm at at the avoidance cap. It makes sense to dump all bloack rating gear and swap it with block value and carry on stacking def/dodge/parry
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Eanin » Mon May 04, 2009 1:32 pm

Your block is way too high and your avoidance is way too low. I'm not saying that you can't survive Ulduar, but you're going to take a lot of 1-2 punches that will leave you dead before your healer blinks. Check your bank for anything with dodge on it so that you can pump some more avoidance in there.

There are some fights, though, where block is really nice for Ulduar. If you're doing adds on Flamescale, Ignus, Deconstructor or, especially, Hodir, block value and rating is really nice. I have a set with 2k BV and 38% block and I'm pretty much invulnerable to anything that doesn't hit very hard.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Phantoom » Mon May 04, 2009 1:56 pm

Eanin wrote:Your block is way too high and your avoidance is way too low. I'm not saying that you can't survive Ulduar, but you're going to take a lot of 1-2 punches that will leave you dead before your healer blinks. Check your bank for anything with dodge on it so that you can pump some more avoidance in there.

There are some fights, though, where block is really nice for Ulduar. If you're doing adds on Flamescale, Ignus, Deconstructor or, especially, Hodir, block value and rating is really nice. I have a set with 2k BV and 38% block and I'm pretty much invulnerable to anything that doesn't hit very hard.


Well i have 103.2% avoidance with HS active with the following:
Def 542
Dodge 20.12
Parry 19.86
Block 22.57

Looking at your armory, u have 1% more dodge than me, but 5% less parry and 8% less block. I could increase my dodge by about 2% by swapping my gear around, but then my avoidance will go down about 5% because i lose a lot of block rating.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Eanin » Mon May 04, 2009 2:06 pm

Avoidance is miss+dodge+parry. It doesn't count block. 102.4% is the "block cap" and includes block.

Also, armory isn't including talents right now. My parry and dodge are 5% higher than appears in the tooltip. I actually have 26.9% dodge and 19.59% parry. Health is 31,404.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby Phantoom » Mon May 04, 2009 2:11 pm

Ah, that helps a lot, i'm getting confused between the block cap and avoidance. I'll concentrate on pure avoidance then and leave block seeing as the block cap takes into account dodge and parry, i should be able to reach that cap with high avoidance.
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Re: Recommended stats for UD

Postby neokai » Thu May 07, 2009 3:28 am

As a maintank:
  • try to get about 50% avoidance (miss+dodge+parry) so that the RNG will be neutral at least towards you. You can expect to at least escape being hit twice in a row with a 75% expectancy at that point.
  • Expertise and hit are largely useless to you as a MT imo, since we pallies do not need much to begin for our threat gen. Stick to glyph of SoV for your expertise and stack more defensive stats imo.
  • At 5/14 Ud, you are matching against either Auriaya and her posse of crazy kitties, or Iron Council, both extremely hard hitting fights. EH is your friend, so work on reaching block cap (BV adds to your EH from then on) while maintaining that ~50% avoidance I mentioned at the beginning.
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