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I need help with my threat.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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I need help with my threat.

Postby Jonlo » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:55 am

I'm going into Thorim Hard Mode, down the tunnel, and the ranged DPS is pulling adds off me. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong.
We have 2 tanks going in, and my job is to pick up the melee adds in the first and second pull, while the warrior tank stuns and silences the caster mob.
Here's the breakdown of what I'm doing:
The gate opens and I come around the corner with Holy Shield and Sacred Shield active, I AS the mob on the left, and then HoR, and ShoR the mob on the right to get aggro on both. I drop a consecrate and once they're in range, I use HotR to get additional aggro on both, switch back to the left one, and hit it with Judgement, then back to the right one and hit it with HoJ and Exorcism. At this point aggro is pulled on one of them some times, and if I'm hit with Whirling Trip, I can't taunt it in time, meanwhile the warrior is grabbing the next set. I don't have AS up for the next set so I start with a RD, then HotR, and maybe stun one of the Warrior didn't shockwave, then a Consecrate, Judge one, and ShoR the other and if AS comes up I use that immediatley. Again, near the end one of the mobs pulls off me and I can't taunt it back cause of the trip. This is sometimes getting the ranged killed. And it makes even less sense since they're focusing the caster mob first. This isn't the first time I've been having threat issues lately, and it's really annoying me. On a normal boss fight when I try and tank, I'm using 96969 and only producing about 7500 TPS.

I'm also having the same initial aggro problems on the adds in the Yogg-Saron fight, and the guild is getting pretty frustrated with my lack of threat.
In Yogg, I usually go HoR, AS, Exo, ShoR, HotR to start, with a Consecrate and HS already going. And I can barely stay ahead of the DPS, nevermind 3rd phase when the adds are coming so fast, I usually don't have AS or Exo up all the time, so the melee are pulling aggro and I'm frantically trying to not let them die. Because of the time constraints to Thorim Hard mode and Yogg-Saron, the dps can't afford to back off the DPS, at risk of falling behind, so it falls to me to step it up, and I'm at a loss for why my threat is so low. You can search my Armory for Jonlo on Kel'Thuzad, currently logged in boss tanking gear/spec.
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Amaranthea » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:36 am

What gear do you have access to other than what you are wearing on armory currently?

My initial reactions are:

1) switch your shield enchant to 20 def and swap your Repelling Charge for a Greatness card.
2) Switch your metagem to defense / sbv.
3) Switch your RD glyph to another threat oriented glyph, unless you have it specifically for taunting bosses.

For the Thorim tunnel in particular, what melee oriented buffs do you bring with you into the tunnel, or is it all casters (that would really hurt your threat).
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Jonlo » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:41 am

Can't bring (or you shouldn't) melee down the Thorim tunnel, lots of movement and the mobs cleave. Better to bring the casters, since in the arena there's a casting debuff that doens't affect melee.

Another problem with swapping gear is that I need to maintain high avoidance/EH cause after the tunnel, I have to tank Thorim as well, who with his Unbalancing Strike can hit me for 34000 at about 50% into the fight, so I have to find a way to manage my threat, but maintain high EH. (Obviously another tank taunts after the US, but if I die first, it defeats the purpose)
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Lightstrike » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:01 pm

I haven't done the Thorim fight yet, but if the mobs cleave then they must be melee oriented... so I can sort of understand your EH viewpoint.. but why not use a balanced set of gear? EH is only superior when you're taking huge hits which cannot be dodged blocked or parried as I understand it... and if the other tank should taunt off you in the first place, then why not use a balanced set making sure you're unhittable? It should provide you with extra threat and similar mitigation given the stated facts... assuming your OT does its job, it shouldnt create any problems at the boss himself.
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Amaranthea » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:17 pm

Yes, I'm aware you don't generally bring melee down the tunnel, but do you have Horn of Winter (for example) refreshed right as you're about to leave, or a SoE totem in the tunnel? Battle Shout (if you don't have might)? Trueshot aura?

As far as gear, are you keeping the 4 piece because of the 3 extra seconds on Divine Protection? Otherwise you should be able to drop at least the chest, and possibly the legs as well.

Edit: threw this together quickly to show what I'm getting at with gear swaps: Pretty much the same survivability as your current gearset (maybe even more due to increased armor), and a good sized threat boost from the DMC:G as well as slightly increased hit and expertise (lol) values. You could improve the set further but I tried not to assume too many random drops.

http://www.chardev.org/?template=170979
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Jonlo » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:52 pm

Perhaps it would be best if I explained the mechanics of what I deal with in the Thorim fight first.
In phase 1, after you kill the Wurm, and 5 man group fighting him, the melee and a tank stay in the arena to deal with waves of mobs that have low HP, but spawn fairly quickly, and Thorim throwing his hammer at you which silences/interrupts casting, in an aoe. The rest of the group heads down a tunnel to fight 2 minibosses.

The first pull consists of 2 Melee mobs far enouhg apart that AS won't bounce between them and a caster/healer mob. The melee mobs do a move called Whirling Trip, that basically stuns you for several seconds, with no DR on it, and you can't break it (it's a knockdown) as well as an impale that hits for around 9k and leaves a dot on you. The boss at the end of the hall meanwhile is sending shockwaves down the left and right sides of the hall you have to dodge. After 2 of these trashpulls, you can pull the first miniboss and kill him which opens the door to another set of 2 knockdown/cleave mobs, and 2 more healers, with more that spawn (if the other tank is fast you won't get more than the 4 you start with) and you engage the 2nd mini boss at the top of some stairs. Once he's dead the door to Thorim opens, and you run to him, attacking him starts the fight in the arena again, where the first group should be cleaning up their adds.

Thorim then joins the fight, with melee attacks, a chain lightning that jumps to unlimited targets within 10 yards (and increases in damage on jumps) and a lightning charge that hits 1/6 of the area youre fightning in. He also gains charges that increase his physical and nature damage, as well as he has Unbalancing strike, a very heavy melee attack that reduces your defence by 200. When you get hit by this (and it very rarely misses) the other tank has to taunt off you. At about 5-6 charges of his buff, it starts hitting you for 34000+, and he melee's for 12k or so. Meaning low avoidance/EH is out of the question, as you're rotating cooldowns at that point just to not get instagibbed by the US. (On easy mode he has 7mill less HP and 40% less damage)

On top of Thorims damage, Sif is also in the fight on hard mode, which she has a blizzard that circles the room and ticks for 5700 or so. She frostbolts random targets, and aoe frostbolts for about 8k and does a frost nova for 11k (can be fatal if you get stuck in Thorim's Lightning Charge at the same time) She is not tankable, she just kind of runs wild.

So I have to maintain high threat in the tunnel not to lose control of the adds, because Hard mode has a 3 minute time limit to activate, but the fight itself has such heavy incoming damage that by the time you get Thorim to 50% you're already rotating tanks with Shield Wall, DP, GS ect. And if you take a US at the same time as Sif casts Frost Nova, that's 45000 incoming damage in less than a second. You're dead. Never mind Thorims melee attacks.
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Jonlo » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:08 pm

Amaranthea wrote:Yes, I'm aware you don't generally bring melee down the tunnel, but do you have Horn of Winter (for example) refreshed right as you're about to leave, or a SoE totem in the tunnel? Battle Shout (if you don't have might)? Trueshot aura?

As far as gear, are you keeping the 4 piece because of the 3 extra seconds on Divine Protection? Otherwise you should be able to drop at least the chest, and possibly the legs as well.

Edit: threw this together quickly to show what I'm getting at with gear swaps: Pretty much the same survivability as your current gearset (maybe even more due to increased armor), and a good sized threat boost from the DMC:G as well as slightly increased hit and expertise (lol) values. You could improve the set further but I tried not to assume too many random drops.

http://www.chardev.org/?template=170979


I've passed on all the legs/chests that you recommend. Dammit. Gonna check the 10 man/25 man ulduar loot lists, as I don't have much time for Naxx anymore.
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Playdoh » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:15 pm

just a quick note, I notice you don't mention exorcism.

As one melee, exo the other??
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Jonlo » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:33 pm

Playdoh wrote:just a quick note, I notice you don't mention exorcism.

As one melee, exo the other??


I did mention it. Check again. :)
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:46 pm

Most important way to establish threat is to open with Judgment -> ShoR. Exo and AS the other mob as necessary. Once you upgrade from LoO that becomes HS-> ShoR.

If you're really having threat problems with that trash as a pally, it probably means that the ranged is going to kill it before it reaches them anyway. Remember that a tank's job is to prevent their party from dying, not to keep threat on everything. Thorim trash isn't particularly nasty.

Alternately, they may just need to focus on one mob a bit better. Maybe just establishing "kill right first" is all you need.

I'm surprised you have two tanks going into the tunnel; the arena's usually the hard part for us. Of course, we aren't doing hard mode; though we had to stop ourselves from activating it by accident once or twice. >.>
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Mec » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:38 pm

Just to check, Why don't you call to have the ranged dps focus on the acolyte (the healer mob) to get it down as fast as possible? I havent noticed many fights that are a struggle on threat (thorim area tanking comes to mind) so if its that big a problem just make them focus on nuking down that healer faster and you'll have enough threat on the rest to not worry. Your gear is definitely there threat wise as i dont have as much str or BV in my gear and your spec is almost identical to mine. I suggest just being stricker on your dps to focus target rather than randomly dps any mob or aoe. If your really desperate to save time for that hard mode, pull the 2nd group of adds and tell the ranged again to focus on each healer. When they are done, you should have enough initial threat to handle aoe on the last melee mobs. These are just tips ive found that helped me just to save time but its down to practice and knowing your limits i suppose. They must be saving their cooldowns for those minibosses anyway if they decide to use them so i cant really see the problem. If all else build yourself a threat kit, you can start by shifting that stam on shield or stats on chest for defense enchants and getting rid of the repelling charge and switching in a DMC:Greatness. You should have a noticable threat increase id say.

All in all, if your doing your rotation correctly and pulling 7500 tps, there really shouldnt be a problem. Good luck and hopefully one of those tips you might find useful.
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Re: I need help with my threat.

Postby Kihra » Fri May 01, 2009 12:23 am

When I tank the Thorim hallway, I focus more on the guards than the acolytes.

You have plenty of time to activate hard mode. You don't need someone else pulling the next pack of mobs for you. One tank can handle the entire hallway.

Because of Whirling Trip, bringing melee to the hallway is a bad idea. Melee do much better on the arena floor anyway. You should have ranged in the hallway, and they should hang back well out of range of Whirling Trip.

Don't Avenger's Shield from a distance. You'll only hit one mob, and you'll cause them to run to you. Two of them may even immediately peel for a healer. Run in to the mobs instead, and as they all close in, you can hit all 3 with Avengers Shield and all 3 with Hammer of the Righteous. I'd say your issues probably stem from being overeager with your Avengers Shield, instead of being patient and saving it so that it can hit all three targets.

Finally, if you do lose the Acolyte, it doesn't matter. Focus on the guards. The acolyte will slowly head towards some ranged person (who should be hanging back), and as he gets low he'll stop and try to heal anyway.
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