Health issues

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Health issues

Postby Elderin » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:16 am

Perhaps I'm doing it wrong, but I'm in Ulduar and I can't help but notice that my Paladin's health is substantially lower than other tanks and it makes it difficult for Elderin to be a MT for any boss fight. And it's not as though Elderin is poorly geared or gemmed. He only has two iLevel 200 items and both are probably best in slot (those being the Libram of Obstruction and the Repelling Charge). Everything else is iLevel 213 or above including three iLevel 226 items (the quest neck from H-Maly, the Wall of Terror and the Last Laugh). Unbuffed, I think I have about 25000 and I hit about 35000 in raids. Yet, my Warrior (Alucardxvt) counter-part has about 27000 health and hits about 38000 raid buffed. My Deathknight counter-part (Deathnice) has about the same (maybe a bit higher). I won't compare my Druid counterpart because it's not the same.

Up to this point, having slightly lower health hasn't been a significant problem because Elderin's threat generation makes up for lack of health (I hit about 8K TPS and have hit over 15K against Thadius) allows healers to hit hard and fast. Also, knowing Elderin's limitations, I defer some bosses to the more durable tanks (H-Maly for the first few tries; though Elderin tanked Sapph on our guild first).

But now in Ulduar, Elderin is becoming a 4th wheel in tanking. Typically, Elderin is the 1st OT meaning that any boss that requires two tanks, Alucardxvt and Elderin tank the boss. However, because most bosses hit so hard, they're nearly one-shotting Elderin. I was off-tanking Kologarn recently and, unless the healers were really on their toes, Kologarn essentially one-shots Elderin when I taunt off the MT. As it stands I constantly get the low health warning. Even on 10-Man, it's a real struggle to stay alive and I'm popping everything.

So, what's going on here?
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Re: Health issues

Postby culhag » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:44 am

25k unbuffed seems very low for someone in 213 gear.

I see that you gem for Strength and Hit. We already generate more threat than most other tanks so that's really not needed at all.
Put Stam everywhere. Use def/stam or dodge/stam if you want to keep a socket bonus.
Last edited by culhag on Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Jasari » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:48 am

You're doing it wrong:

Neck is gemmed for +16str

Shoulder is gemmed for +8str/+8def

Chest is gemmed for +16 hit

Bracer is gemmed for +16 str

Belt is gemmed for +16 hit

This may have been a good idea for farming overgeared content, but for progression I'd take defensive stats over threat stats any day of the week.

Also, the parry trinket is terrible

Also, 5/5 benediction is terrible

Also using only 2 glyphs and having one of them be SA is terrible
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Re: Health issues

Postby Steve » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:09 am

Perhaps the problem isn't that you're doing something wrong, but Elderin is.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Venoseth » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:13 am

As others have stated previously, gem Stam for blue, stam/dodge for red and stam/def for yellow sockets (to maximize EH on worthwhile socket bonuses, otherwise go with solid for them).

Get the Divine Plea glyph, it's a 3% DR that's up for both magic and melee even when we're incap'd, I also keep the salv glyph in my MT build (I have a trash and a MT build for my dual-spec). I'd say go 5/60/6 if you want to maximize EH, I managed to get Imp. HoJ, divinity and DG into the build w/o losing anything but threat, which obviously isn't the problem. ^^
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Re: Health issues

Postby Kracus » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:23 am

Steve wrote:Perhaps the problem isn't that you're doing something wrong, but Elderin is.

Ok good, was feeling like the only one.

Anywho, I'm surprised your dodge is that low as well. I thought I didn't have enough.

As Jasa said, avoidance/stam > threat especially on progression.

Put stam to shield even, you have plenty of defense at the moment. I personally hate that belt, but I'm guessing you never got a shot at the one from mexxna (hell I barely got it myself). Replace repelling charge with the dodge trinket from badges.

stam in a socket not blue if the bonus isn't a big deal like sbr.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Arees » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:13 pm

I imported your character into chardev from the armory, and just by regemming you can get to 28.6k. Also, I would change your chest enchant to 22 def, and you cloak to either 22 agility or 120 armor (enchant to the strength of the item, so I suggest armor). I also changed your hand enchant to the LW +18 stam, but if you're an engineer I would use that 800ish armor enchant.

In my gear I have 30-31k unbuffed... armory seems messed up atm.

it isnt taking stam from talents into account (I think). 27204 * 1.16 = 31,556 hp for me. In fact it doesn't seem to take any talents into account... my parry/dodge should both be 5% higher.
Last edited by Arees on Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Health issues

Postby PsiVen » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:55 pm

You're also using a few suboptimal pieces of gear with poor itemization:

- Rune of Repulsion (pure parry is terrible, get an Essence of Gossamer)
- Legs & Belt (too much SBR, not enough sockets)

There are several options for belts (219 from 10m Razorscale, crafted 226 is BiS, 226 from conq badges), legs (T7.5, T8, 3D25 all drop upgrades iirc, 226 from conq badges, 226 from 25m Kologarn) and the trinket you should have already but go farm H-AN if not. With these changes you should hit 30k unbuffed HP easy.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Spectrum » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:17 pm

Yeah, you really ought to gem and enchant for more EH. Part of that is taking advantage of the good defense enchants (they are very good in terms of itemization).

Right now I'm in full Naxx-10 gear. I don't think I have a single 213 item in my prot set, and I'm using the Monarch Crab as one of my trinkets (blue, but awesome).

I have 29k health unbuffed and in 10-man raids I sit at about 35k. 36.5k with a flask. At the same time I'm uncrushable, uncrittable, and have 52% avoidance (or something like that).

Sounds like you just need to do some regemming and re-enchanting.

However, I still end up tanking adds when they're around because shield = win in that situation.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Lightstrike » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:27 pm

I hate to echo everyone else, but with your health that low I would expect around 25% dodge, 22% parry and enough block and miss to make you unhittable..

To add to what other people have said, you seem to still have engineering and you're not using the glove enchant which is about the only reason to keep it.. If I were you I'd pick up jewelcrafting for the dragons eye gems.

It's important to note that you have a huge block rating, which is a complete waste unless you're stacking BV too.. which from what you have said, isn't your aim.

You need to drop some BR gear for items with more pure avoidance such as dodge and parry , but remember that parry has worse itemisation than dodge..

I can only echo what others have said regarding gemming for strength and your trinkets... You really should be looking at getting rid of the two you have straight away... It's a lot easier as a JC because you can get the crab, which is an awesome trinket... the Essence of Iron blows it out of the water though, and despite the druids pleas of compassion, it's fucking great for all tanks, not just them. Repelling charge is something you shouldn't need if you are geared correctly.

In an ideal world, you should be looking to get as much dodge and parry as you can while maintaining unhittable status and at the same time you should use around 28-30k hp as a benchmark of what to aim for stamina-wise... gemming red as dodge, blue as stam and yellow as Def+dodge is the simplest way to go about it.


If your guild is halfway decent they shouldn't judge tanks purely on how much hp they've got.. they should be looking at avoidance stats too, but with yours maybe that's a good thing :P

I'm sorry the underlying response is that you are not gemmed, geared, glyphed and talented 'properly' but I'm afraid there's no other way to put it. If you want to maximise your tanking potential, these are the basic areas where you must start.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Belarkan » Sun May 03, 2009 4:44 am

The armory seems to mess a bit health. ( ... n=Belarkan)
I got 31.5K ingame unbuffed and armory says I have around 28.5K :-/
I logged in and got gear which is pretty similar to yours but with a huge stat difference.

Got ~32K health, 21.37 dodge, 20 parry, 1370 BV and around 20% BR
I know I sometime have some unblocked hit but I feel it's rather fine as it is now.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Wibu » Sun May 03, 2009 5:50 am

The armory isn't applying talents. This means no +14% stam, no +15% str, no +5% dodge, no +5% parry and no +whatever expertise.

Elderin should take a look at stam trinkets. Elderin should also take a look at his gems, some of those are whack. - The WoW Raiding Forums ... Coming Soon.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Chasey » Mon May 04, 2009 12:49 pm

Looking at the gear lvl you have and the choices you've made I can understand the statements that have been made.

I know this wan't what you came here for but you are using nothing from Eng prof any longer you might want to think about droping it for something that you can actually use. Blizz has stated most of Eng is for pvp or gimik use and those who are die hard fans of the unique features it provides.

I see no reason why w/the mentioned upgrades you can't hit 30k-31K health easy and still hold awesome threat.
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Re: Health issues

Postby aleyona » Thu May 07, 2009 5:45 am

Lightstrike wrote:I hate to echo everyone else, but with your health that low I would expect around 25% dodge, 22% parry and enough block and miss to make you unhittable..

This is the situation I'm in (kinda, but I like it that way). I have around 28% dodge, 19% parry, and like 15% block. What I have done however is gemmed my gear almost exclusively for avoidance rather than stamina. I think if I re-gemmed for stamina I'd easily have 31-32k unbuffed.
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Re: Health issues

Postby Nadir » Thu May 07, 2009 7:25 am

There isn't a huge disparity in health if both players are equally geared. At the moment, I have 44k HP and my guild's warrior MT has 45k HP raid buffed. Paladins and warriors tend to wear a lot of the same gear for stacking stamina. The major difference is that they can go Tauren and get 57 stamina and a decent amount of avoidance from the Ulduar ranged weapon.
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