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Less reckoning procs vs. slower, higher DPS/TPS weapons

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Less reckoning procs vs. slower, higher DPS/TPS weapons

Postby Pv » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:30 am

Some serious theorycrafting incoming...

Consider Continuum Blade... 1.8 spd and 161 +dmg with enchant and Gavel of Unearthed Secrets 2.7 spd and 199 +dmg with enchant.

If you use the formula posted in the math post above

0.85 *(22 + (2 * (WeaponSpeed*10) - 30) + (WeaponSpeed*0.092*SpellDamage))

You get (including white damage and adjusting for RF threat bonus)

Continuum Blade: 121 TPS
Gavel: 187 TPS

but! you say... Gavel will only proc 2 extra attacks in a Reckoning proc... versus 4 for CB... so everything evens out.

How significant is this advantage? Not so much significant as the large potential TPS difference, as far as I can tell.

Consider a 4 minute (240 second) fight.

There will be a maximum of 30 Reckoning proc periods during this fight, but given the 10% proc rate, on average you'll only see 3 procs.

That is equivalent to 12 extra attacks on CB and 6 extra attacks on Gavel.

Given that CB will attack 150 times in 240 seconds and Gavel 88, the increase in number of swings is 8% for CB and 6.8% for Gavel.

If you multiply the TPS by this swing increase you'll get 131 TPS for CB vs. 200 TPS for Gavel.

Of course... reckoning can proc more often than 10% in a given fight, but then it can also proc less.

I've read on wowwiki that the TPS formula for SoR does not exactly match reality, so this is theory crafting, but it seems to me from the numbers I have available here that a large advantage in weapon + SoR TPS will usually more than offset its loss in reckoning procs.

Please discuss.
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Postby Thorgrym » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:13 am

Just curious how this would work for the S2 arena mace. Im not as inclined to attempt to theroy craft as much as you seem, so Ill hope you can come up with an answer :D

Thanks.



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Postby Pv » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:24 am

Merciless Gladiator's Gavel does surprisingly badly:

134 combined theorycraft TPS (white dps is the same) pre reckoning.

the issue is the 1.6 speed. if you notice in the formula for SoR

22 + (2 * (WeaponSpeed*10) - 30) + (WeaponSpeed*0.092*SpellDamage) = Damage per Second

The spell damage scales with weapon speed.

2.7 is a lot better scaling than 1.6

You should also note that this weapon will waste even more reckoning procs than the 1.8 spd weapons.
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Postby SmurfZG » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:00 pm

you should take into account that there's a (fairly large) chance for the gavel to proc 3 times, since reckoning conveniently enough doesn't always proc when your swing timer starts
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Postby Everlight » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:21 pm

Reckoning will typically proc a lot less than 10% of the time, on account of it only proccing on blows that actually hit. Dodged, missed, and parried attacks can't trigger it.
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Postby Pv » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:25 pm

Thats true... but it doesn't mitigate my point, it enforces it.

A slow 1h weapon with plenty +dmg on it, like Gavel of Unearthed Secrets just looks really good for single target threat... at least when you're into the meat of the fight. Probably the best in the game, and it only is improved by your other +dmg gear.
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Postby kvark » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:14 pm

2.7 speed scares me a bit, a couple misses and you're looking at almost 10 seconds between the hits.
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Postby Everlight » Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:04 pm

kvark wrote:2.7 speed scares me a bit, a couple misses and you're looking at almost 10 seconds between the hits.


Doesn't matter, most of your threat is coming from other sources anyway. Hell, just judge and consecrate if you're that worried about it :)
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Re: Less reckoning procs vs. slower, higher DPS/TPS weapons

Postby jere » Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:37 pm

Pv wrote:
0.85 *(22 + (2 * (WeaponSpeed*10) - 30) + (WeaponSpeed*0.092*SpellDamage))



I believe you are using the wrong formula (or using this formula wrong). I don't think that formula calculated DPS as it seems more to calculate straight damage per hit.

The 0.092 coefficient is in units of "per weapon speed" (or "per second")

So Weapon_Speed * "per weapon speed" * dmg = dmg

Not dmg/sec.

SoR gives the same dps regardless of weapon speed, so the only dps changes should come from the spell dmg changes.

The gavel has 38 more spell dmg so it should increase the dps by 3.496 dps or 6.6424 tps.

I haven't looked at your math on reckoning yest as it is late here, but your dps/tps numbers seem to be off due to the way you are using that equation. Also of note is that the equation isn't really correct. SoR takes into account max and min weapon dmg. I think that is the equation that used to be wowwiki, but the author of that page admitted to that equation being incorrect. Might be something to consider.



Pv wrote:

Consider a 4 minute (240 second) fight.

There will be a maximum of 30 Reckoning proc periods during this fight, but given the 10% proc rate, on average you'll only see 3 procs.

There is a flaw here in that reckoning can proc while reckoning is already up (it just resets), but it shouldn't affect your math I don't think.


Pv wrote:That is equivalent to 12 extra attacks on CB and 6 extra attacks on Gavel.

Given that CB will attack 150 times in 240 seconds and Gavel 88, the increase in number of swings is 8% for CB and 6.8% for Gavel.

It is actually eqivalent to 6 to 9 attacks from the gavel as it can consume 2-3 charges during a reckoning phase depending on when your first strike lands. You will need to do some kind of averaging to get a good number.

I ended up doing something like: 8/2.7 = 2.963 extra attacks (on average). Of course for 3 reckoning procs in your example that would be 8.889 extra swings instead of 6 for the gavel. Also, the CB will get 240/1.8 = 133.33 swings (as opposed to 150) in the 240 second interval.

I think the gavel will still win out, but I think the numbers are a lot closer than you have found so far.


Pv wrote:If you multiply the TPS by this swing increase you'll get 131 TPS for CB vs. 200 TPS for Gavel.

Again, your base TPS numbers are incorrect, so this needs to be adjusted.
Last edited by jere on Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby elsydeon » Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:40 pm

would be easier if someone could copy a character with them to the PTR to play with the new SoR tooltip that displays the actual dmg done (dont know if it is before or after +dmg)
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Postby PsiVen » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:29 am

Parry haste will also favor slower weapons as it can allow for all 4 reckoning charges to be used.

Keep in mind that when you're AoE tanking mobs that hit hard enough to proc reckoning, nearly every swing is going to be parry hasted and you're very likely to get all 4 Reckoning procs regardless of your weapon's speed. But by the same token you'll still be hitting more often in general with a faster weapon, often you're using JoW+SoW in this situation.

I would kill for a slow weapon with over 230 spell damage and maybe even some (gasp) tanking stats...
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Postby kvark » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:32 am

me too... I have 10 minutes daily where I shake my head over blizzards decition to put in just one real pallietanksword which only got 121 SD.


aaaanyway :
as for AE tanking, I'm fairly sure you wont use SoR over SoW. Then you're back to wanting a fast sword to regain more mana.

for bossmobs.. I still just wouldn't use a 2.00 + speed sword to tank with. Rekoning just plays too big of a role, you really do want all 4 procs to count. I tried the other day to just ditch rekoning and taking imp.SoR for a gruul kill, and the DPS'ers had to hold back a whole lot. Gruul got to growth *16* before he died. Next time I tried with both impSor and rekoning (ditching ardent defender), and when gruul fell, I was 25% ahead of anyone in threat.

the conclusion is that rekoning procs is not reliable, but those occational threat boosts - you want them, and you want all of them. Ergo, gravel is just too slow to give you the kick you want.
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Re: Less reckoning procs vs. slower, higher DPS/TPS weapons

Postby Pv » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:45 am

jere wrote:
Pv wrote:
0.85 *(22 + (2 * (WeaponSpeed*10) - 30) + (WeaponSpeed*0.092*SpellDamage))



I believe you are using the wrong formula (or using this formula wrong). I don't think that formula calculated DPS as it seems more to calculate straight damage per hit.

The 0.092 coefficient is in units of "per weapon speed" (or "per second")

So Weapon_Speed * "per weapon speed" * dmg = dmg

Not dmg/sec.


Nope.. you're actually right (and that math forum post plus wowwiki are unclear on the matter,) so 1h weapons essentially do just scale with weapon damage at 0.092%, thus its very easy to determine their relative worth.

The slight difference would be reckoning on weapons <2.0 weapon speed, where a full charge reckoning is less effective, although this will mean a 1.0% difference, at most, in total weapon threat.
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