Have I underrated Armor?

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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Candiru » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:51 am

Bonus armour on items no longer gets the +10% from toughness, but does it get the +30% from Inspiration?
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Wardari » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:06 am

The one thing i've not noticed anyone mention yet is that armor is a constant damage reduction, it is the one thing that is ALWAYS there (excluding debuffs like sunder armor, or other effects), even with that avoidance RNG fails your armor is there reducing the damage intake.

This really rolls back to TBC and SWP, where bosses were hitting so hard that you needed a massive effective health pool to survive long enough for the heals to land (i can certainly remember some brown trouser moments when tanking Brutallus on my Warrior).

Block is also a fantastic stat as it's applied after armor reduction making it another superb static reduction (providing you're block capped) but it is only really a stat worth stacking when you're tanking multiple mobs that are hitting fast and for small amounts, this is where block truely shines.

In Ulduar MT situations, block is an icing on the cake rather than a stacking stat, everything is hitting so damn hard it's more beneficial to roll with high armor and stamina and as much avoidance as you can cram on. You want enough armor and stamina to surivive the incoming hits and potential parry gibs, while maintaining high avoidance to take a bit of the pressure off the healers, although in these situations all I generally see is massive overheal anyway as an unlucky hit can result in a dead tank. Block is a nice little reduction bonus, but 1500ish damage off a 15k-20k blow isn't anything to get that excited about. However SBV is nice for a bit of extra single target TPS through SoR.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby majiben » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:10 am

Wardari wrote:Block is also a fantastic stat as it's applied after armor reduction making it another superb static reduction (providing you're block capped) but it is only really a stat worth stacking when you're tanking multiple mobs that are hitting fast and for small amounts, this is where block truely shines.
This is false.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby ticklefist » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:14 am

This is false.


This is correct.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Wardari » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:07 am

Care to elaborate guys? I mean i'm happy to listen, but a little more info would be appreciated :)

For slow big hitting bosses, 2k block off a 20k+ blow is a stones throw in terms of mitigation, but the SBV is great for SoR TPS. At this level of damage, having high stamina and armor is beneficial purely for the stability.

For small trash that are hitting you for 2-3k, ignoring 2k from each blow is fantastic stable mitigation over the avoidance RNG. Not to mention the additional holy shield threat gained from blocking instead of avoiding it all. My healers and DPS certainly prefer me in SBV gear for the ligher hitting mobs.

If you can reach a SBV of 5k+ then i'd certainly start using block and SBV for bosses, instead of just small hitting trash.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby majiben » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:19 am

First off speed has almost nothing to do with the value of BV. Slow means nothing. Fast or frequent can devalue it some but gearing for Br and Redoubt will prevent it from dropping too low.

Additionally, BV is invaluable when you are doing a mitigation fight, no matter the size of hits. When heals are in short supply, expensive or unreliable, mitigation provided by block is great.

BV is only devalued when hits become massive, and even then it does make the minimum healing needed to survive the next hit lower.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Wardari » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:38 am

Majiben wrote:BV is only devalued when hits become massive, and even then it does make the minimum healing needed to survive the next hit lower.


Very true, but in those situations actively stacking SBV over other stats won't save your life, as we simply can't reach the insane amount of of block value needed to make a significant reduction.

Don't get me wrong I won't turn my nose up at a free 1500 odd reduction if that's what my avoidance gear turns out to have as a result of strength > SBV conversion. But when you're taking large hits, (usually in a MTing situation) heals aren't in short supply, the more damage you take the more healers and thus healing is directed your way to compensate for this. This is where effective health and avoidance I feel is superior as a result of stability for the healers, namely giving them the time to top you up again before the next hit, or potentially surviving a parry haste gib is far more important.

On trash where the incoming damage from each individual mob is usually lower, although the TOTAL damage taken from all may be equivalent to that big boss bashing your face in I find that block is far superior as you're guaranteed to at the very LEAST block X amount from every single mob (at least till the HS charges are remaining). It's simple mathematics.

5 trash mobs hitting for 4k each = potentially 20k total damage every 2 seconds - with 2000 SBV and 102.7% you are guranteed to ignore at least 10k damage total without any avoids.

A boss hitting for 20k every 2 seconds, with your SBV of 2k you're only going to be ignoring 2k damage unless you avoid.

SBV Vs a boss may be a small trickle of guranteed mitigation hence my previous statement that it's an "icing on the cake", but it's not as effective as it is on trash where the DPS on you is split up and you're taking more hits per second (and I use the term hit loosely).
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Isetnefret » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:49 am

Hmmmm, is there really a threshold where Shifting Twilight Opal is better than Solid Sky Sapphire, but worse than Delicate Scarlet Ruby?
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:55 pm

When you need the stam and it's a red +8stam bonus socket. :D
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Venoseth » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:36 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:When you need the stam and it's a red +8stam bonus socket. :D



No, then you use your jewlers gem. :o

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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby trellian » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:49 am

Wardari wrote:SBV Vs a boss may be a small trickle of guranteed mitigation hence my previous statement that it's an "icing on the cake", but it's not as effective as it is on trash where the DPS on you is split up and you're taking more hits per second (and I use the term hit loosely).


With current damage from bosses, two direct hits basically kill you. Healers will need to spam heal you to keep you alive.
Avoidance is nice and all, but as long as tanks are not able to take 2 full hits in a row without needing heals, then you need to be spamhealed anyway. This is just how the RNG works.

Now, if you can come by with a healer that heals for about 2k less every heal, but because of that, is able to keep spamming you without going oom, then that 2K dmg you reduce by blocking is going to save your life.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Wardari » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:19 am

trellian wrote:
Wardari wrote:SBV Vs a boss may be a small trickle of guranteed mitigation hence my previous statement that it's an "icing on the cake", but it's not as effective as it is on trash where the DPS on you is split up and you're taking more hits per second (and I use the term hit loosely).


With current damage from bosses, two direct hits basically kill you. Healers will need to spam heal you to keep you alive.
Avoidance is nice and all, but as long as tanks are not able to take 2 full hits in a row without needing heals, then you need to be spamhealed anyway. This is just how the RNG works.

Now, if you can come by with a healer that heals for about 2k less every heal, but because of that, is able to keep spamming you without going oom, then that 2K dmg you reduce by blocking is going to save your life.


I can see where you guys are coming from and it may be superior mitigation, but I still don't see an arguement for stacking block, to stack it to the levels needed you'd have to sacrifice so much in terms of avoidance, stamina and armor. Tanks are able to survive two blows without going down, it's therefore it's up to the healers to do the rest beyond this point. Block although scales well with armor and stamina, it's still a very linear surviability stat when MTing a big hitting boss. Because of the RNG, avoidance scales better and better the more you of it you have.

You'll survive those 2 x 20k blows in a row without healing, if blocking 2k from each - but you certainly won't survive the third even with that extra 2k block. If you're stacking higher avoidance and not worrying so much about block value, those 2 x 20k blows won't kill you if you only block say 1k of the damage as a result of holy shield, and although the third might the RNG might just save you and with more avoidance the higher your chances of it happening.

In addition - with the amount of healing power being thrown around a large portion of heals are ending up as overheal right now anyway. Hell in my dual spec healing gear which is mainly naxx 10 with heroic and the odd 25 man naxx item, I was able to keep spamming the two tanks on Kologarn dropping 20k+ crit Holy Lights for the duration of encounter while beaconing the Rubble offtank as and when needed.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Steve » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:34 am

Ah 20K hits. The good old days! What I would give to go back to the days of only 20K hits!
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Belarkan » Mon May 04, 2009 7:13 am

Vexryn wrote:With Deconstructor on 25-man hitting me for about 17k-23k melee swings and an average right around 20k, I had always thought of this as 20k reduced by an additional 1% from armor = 19.8k melee swing.


I was thinking I might also have underrated armor.
At first glance, xt-002 does hit me for an average 22K (without our disc priest) while I got 42K health buffed and 63% armor reduction.
How many armor do you have ?

Avoidance isn't bad but I also had really weird hit or miss strings (missed/dodged/parried 12 hits in a row and 6 hits landed then and finally killed me).
Often it'll be 8 to 12 secondes without a hit and then 2 lands and kill me :-/
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Panzerdin » Mon May 04, 2009 9:23 am

The way to evaluate Stamina vs. Armour is to look at the relative EH totals you get, which this calculator will let you do.
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