Have I underrated Armor?

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Have I underrated Armor?

Postby vexryn » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:55 pm

I had a sudden revelation about armor last night as I was looking at my new Leviathan's Coil ring and its yummy 882 armor.

The 882 armor produces ~1% in physical damage reduction from my total armor (I'm rounding slightly just to make numbers easier).

With Deconstructor on 25-man hitting me for about 17k-23k melee swings and an average right around 20k, I had always thought of this as 20k reduced by an additional 1% from armor = 19.8k melee swing.

However, I realized that technically Deconstructor's full melee damage is actually about 60k, and my current armor already reduced about 2/3rds (66%) of it.

On that basis, it would mean that the ~1% damage reduction from additional armor on my Leviathan's Coil doesn't mitigate 200 damage per melee (1% x 20k); it actually reduces 600 damage per melee (1% x 60k original base hit damage amount).

Am I understanding this correctly? If so, I have to admit that it will make me rethink a few of my gear choices for the time being. At about 40k-42k hp raid buffed, I'm just on the cusp of dying to two consecutive melee swings from some bosses if for some reason a healer makes a mistake and doesn't get a heal off. If the mitigation from armor is actually this much higher amount (1% from armor reducing 600 damage, not just 200 damage), it makes me very tempted to give up a little more avoidance in order to stack a bit more armor, and see if I can get incoming melee damage down to only ~19k per swing (which means I have to be 3-shot to be killed).

Can anyone help me to understand if I'm following the armor mechanic correctly here? Thanks.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:11 pm

Yes, armor mitigation is off the base hit, our other damage reductions are after the armor reduction. That's why druids with their high armor and high with were OP.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:36 pm

Yep, that 1% increase depends on what % you're already at. What you're really looking at is:

Code: Select all
       (100% - new%)
100% - -------------
       (100% - old%)


So going from 60% to 61% mitigation is really going from 40% taken to 39% taken, or 2.5% less damage incoming.

I'm really jonesing for that ring. :) It's by far the strongest survival option against (large) physical damage.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Isetnefret » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:51 pm

So, the larger the incoming hit, the better armor is?
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Armor definitely scales with the incoming hit size, so yes the same amount of armor mitigates more damage if the hit is bigger, but the same is true with the other damage reductions we get from RF, Sanctuary, DP Glyph etc. The only thing I can think of that doesn't scale with the hit size, is Blocking.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:02 pm

Fridmarr wrote:The only thing I can think of that doesn't scale with the hit size, is Blocking.

Yeah, I went back and put the "(large)" caveat in there just because of blocking rings. If you're getting hit for 3k or something even more weenie, a BV ring is going to help more than even the coil.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby vexryn » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:32 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:Yeah, I went back and put the "(large)" caveat in there just because of blocking rings. If you're getting hit for 3k or something even more weenie, a BV ring is going to help more than even the coil.


True. But on the other hand, with incoming Ulduar boss hits up in the ~50k-60k range or so, suddenly even trinkets like Defender's Code become FAR more appealing again, especially if it's the difference between whether or not I'd survive two consecutive hits with little or no heals. At the margin, I'd happily give up 1%-2% of avoidance to pick up 1%-2% of sheer damage reduction at this point.

Looks like I need to play a little more with my armor stacking set. And I was just thinking that the 8 gear sets I use in Outfitter were so insufficient... :)
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:41 pm

At the margin, I'd happily give up 1%-2% of avoidance to pick up 1%-2% of sheer damage reduction at this point.
Yes, if you can cross the threshold of surviving another hit, then that is almost certainly worth it.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:47 pm

Trinkets are tricky. I'd say you're right anywhere that stamina isn't an option, though. Surviving 2 (or 3) hits boils down to the EH discussion, and obviously EH is armor * stamina. You can't gem for armor, so stamina is obvious there. Many pieces with bonus armor do so at the cost of avoidance, not stamina, so those are good too.

When you're directly comparing near-equal budget of armor and stamina, I think nearly all of us are well on the side of stamina helping more. For me, I need ~14 armor per 1 stamina for equal EH gains, but you can only get 9.5 armor per 1 stamina for budget. That makes a Sonic Booster worth like 30% more EH than Defender's Code.

-- And when the hits are larger than any one healer's single heals (barring crits), I'd say that even if you're NOT breaking a n->n+1 hits threshold, it's still valuable. Giving a smaller heal the possibility of getting you through the next hit has merit, imo.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Palmela » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:Trinkets are tricky. I'd say you're right anywhere that stamina isn't an option, though. Surviving 2 (or 3) hits boils down to the EH discussion, and obviously EH is armor * stamina. You can't gem for armor, so stamina is obvious there. Many pieces with bonus armor do so at the cost of avoidance, not stamina, so those are good too.

When you're directly comparing near-equal budget of armor and stamina, I think nearly all of us are well on the side of stamina helping more. For me, I need ~14 armor per 1 stamina for equal EH gains, but you can only get 9.5 armor per 1 stamina for budget. That makes a Sonic Booster worth like 30% more EH than Defender's Code.

-- And when the hits are larger than any one healer's single heals (barring crits), I'd say that even if you're NOT breaking a n->n+1 hits threshold, it's still valuable. Giving a smaller heal the possibility of getting you through the next hit has merit, imo.


While technically thats not true since 1 agi= 2 armor, and with the new agi/stam gems put in 3.1 I would say there better than the dodge/agi to fulfill our most common meta. While it wouldnt be smart to gem straight agi just for armor it is entirely possible but you would lose HP doing so, but if your above the block cap I would recommend the agi/stam gems for your red reqs.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby toothdecaykills » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:37 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:The only thing I can think of that doesn't scale with the hit size, is Blocking.

Yeah, I went back and put the "(large)" caveat in there just because of blocking rings. If you're getting hit for 3k or something even more weenie, a BV ring is going to help more than even the coil.


But in this case, with hits near 3k, Block only shows itself when those hits are coming in fast and furious. In all other cases, it wouldn't matter which is better because the difficulty level of this hypothetical encounter is somewhere near putting the square block in the square hole.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:26 pm

I will say that I've found Block particularly valuable in MANY fights in our current tier of content. First time I noticed was tanking the Emalon trash; Pummeler bots on XT, Dwarves in Razorscale (pre-nerf especially), adds on Ignis, and the whole Thorim and Freya fights catered quite strong to block gear. Just because the boss hits hard doesn't mean that's the only damage being dealt. Guilds are, as a rule, very good at keeping a tank alive while he's tanking a big tough boss. It's the other stuff that messes people up.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Steve » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:30 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:Just because the boss hits hard doesn't mean that's the only damage being dealt. Guilds are, as a rule, very good at keeping a tank alive while he's tanking a big tough boss. It's the other stuff that messes people up.


Block is definitely useful in the situations you mention, but I don't buy this last part. Larger numbers of smaller hits are always easier to heal because of timing issues. Heals don't need to land in small windows of time to keep you alive. The damage coming in is more consistent and thus less prone to be overhealed.

Spikes kill tanks. Predictable damage coming in -- even if it's high DTPS -- is relatively easy to heal.

As a for instance, the DK tank takes roughly 50% more damage than I do if he tanks the pummelers on XT. He isn't 50% harder to heal by a longshot. The healers I talked to hardly noticed the difference.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:56 pm

Well, yes, spikes kill tanks. But not Hateful Strikes. What I mean is that being able to tank an unfortunately large number of adds for a very brief period of time is important, or being able to grab an add while tanking several already; also taking virtually no damage from a trash pack allows your healers an extra GCD to keep that unlucky DPS alive. Not every spike is a Fusion Punch. There's raid damage spikes, there's OMGADDS, there's hope-for-avoidance roulette... Block has its place in tank suvivability.

Reaching the EH threshold to be mathematically capable of defeating a boss is trivial. That's not what gearing is about, IMHO.
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Re: Have I underrated Armor?

Postby Spectrum » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:15 pm

Armor is actually designed to scale linearly, in that every X points of armor should allow you to survive for Y more seconds. There's diminishing returns on armor in terms of mitigation, but every point of armor increases your EH by the same amount.

Basically, armor adds a the same amount of EH if you go from 0-1000 or 30,000-31,000.

Just thought you should know that it won't give you nice multiplicative scaling. It's still good for EH though.
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