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Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby mclem » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:59 am

QuantumDelta wrote:The only way it would effect your dodge chance is (negatively) assuming it's before dodge on the attack table, which, as was mentioned before, hasn't been proven, and your total avoidance (pre-block) was over 102.4% (not gonna happen any time soon).


Thinking about the ordering on the attack table, it strikes me that the most logical setup for the attack table would have the most desirable outcome (parry - incurs no damage, gives small threat boost) bottommost on the table, followed by miss (incurs no damage), then dodge (incurs no damage, runs risk of Overpower) and finally block (incurs damage). If the arrangement was that way, then you could never reduce the chance of a more-desirable effect by stacking a less-desirable effect, which would be optimal design.

One piece of evidence for this theory is the fact that we know that block is topmost, but it's still mostly guesswork.

Not that it actually ultimately makes much difference to this discussion.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:50 am

After running with blade warding for a couple weeks, my next weapon will be enchanted with Agility.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby majiben » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:52 pm

mclem wrote:Thinking about the ordering on the attack table, it strikes me that the most logical setup for the attack table would have the most desirable outcome (parry - incurs no damage, gives small threat boost) bottommost on the table, followed by miss (incurs no damage), then dodge (incurs no damage, runs risk of Overpower) and finally block (incurs damage). If the arrangement was that way, then you could never reduce the chance of a more-desirable effect by stacking a less-desirable effect, which would be optimal design.
There's no reason to call that the most logical set up. There's nothing about our set of axioms that makes that the logical conclusion. Things are not fully optimized for the player inherently, especially for things out of sight. Besides it can argued that miss is the most desirable outcome in general as it is in effect when you're stunned or have your back turned.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Eanin » Tue May 05, 2009 8:01 am

Ekko wrote:Managed to get Blade ward on Broken Promise (BB).
I haven't done any proc analysis/testing before so here's what I did:

Target: Level 60 target dummy (so I wouldn't miss)
Weapon speed: 2.5
Total time of test: 1800 seconds (30 mins) starting count from 1st hit.
Record method: yeah....just myself counting the procs =S I feel rested etc and would say I'm 90% certain I didn't miss any procs :?

Results: 32 procs over 720 hits over 1800 seconds (30 secs)
It can stack, therefore has no CD, low proc chance.

Here are the proc times in seconds:
86, 121, 151, 171, 193, 316, 329, 354, 384, 406, 436, 484, 667, 712, 716, 765, 768, 778, 820, 825, 994, 1184, 1241, 1281, 1311, 1326, 1474, 1531, 1561, 1701, 1761, 1779

Stacks occurred, as u can see, @: 716, 768 and 825

Maybe someone can find this data useful for some proper summary/conclusion on bladeward's threat/mitigation.


That's almost exactly 1 ppm, which is kind of what I had expected. Thanks for doing the work.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Elsie » Tue May 05, 2009 8:57 am

The problem with this enchant is the ppm is too low to be reliable.

DPS love proc abilities. It's less to think about and they have a 45s internal CD instead of 1.5-3min CD giving it greater uptime and thus greater chance of being up when it can stack with other abilities.

Healers love proc abilities. If it's mana, it doesn't matter if it comes now or later. You're healing the whole fight so gains are gains. If it's bonus healing, then proc chances are generally up more often so they have a higher chance of being up for higher dmg times for multiple, shorter duration boss abilities. Bonus healing also can mean you get to chill out and save a GCD of time. Bonus haste can let you weave in extra spells, increase HPS as spell power, etc. It's also something you can ignore the whole fight as it works by itself.

Tanks are geared so normal events don't kill them. That's the whole point. A tank is going to live assuming no one screws up. What a tank is worried about is non-normal events like Unbalancing Strike, periodic enrages, Falcon Punch abilities. A proc abilities wouldn't be bad, but it would have to have either a high ppm and/or apply a significant buff/debuff with good uptime. Otherwise, the tank sees this as "Well, I have a 5% chance to maybe get a benefit and it could save me, but agi is 100%, str is 100%, and mongoose seems to be more reliable."
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Meliora » Tue May 05, 2009 11:24 pm

So is the consensus that Blade Ward is not worth enchanting currently? I was lucky enough to receive a Titanguard http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45110 tonight from our Ulduar 25 man run and immediately put Blade Ward on it but am already feeling dissapointed. Tomorrow I will try on our Thorim attempts to see how it works out, but am really wondering if I might benefit more from switching to potency or mongoose? I really wish I had researched this more before making the leap :?
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Ascendant » Wed May 06, 2009 12:55 am

I gave Bladeward a shot this week. After looking over my World of Logs report though, I am going to go with 26 agi. I had around 1 ppm for the raid, that's way too low. That's like 33 parry rating average (if you ignore the fact that it gets consumed on parries).
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Kaeos » Wed May 06, 2009 2:07 pm

I'm seeing completely different results with this enchant. Maybe it's been hotfixed? I have, easily 50%-75% uptime with the Blade Warding Buff. I'm going to get a WWS parse from tonight's raid and post it here as 'proof'. I added blade warding to my SCT events but had to remove it, because of the frequency it was popping up.

Another thing I've noticed from the comments here is people talking about low PPM on Target Dummies... this I find extremely odd because when I went to test it out just now, I had to stop swinging so my 5 stack would fall off (Can't Dismiss it for some reason, could've been user error). I had to do that three times. I eventually gave up and decided it was working fine and that I couldn't truely test it without something to Parry.


I've been extremely impressed with this enchant, so I'm quite shocked to find that so many people are talking about keeping their old enchants or resorting to Blood Draining.

Like I said, I'll get some parses and we'll see what's going on. Here's an armory link if that helps
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Fridmarr » Wed May 06, 2009 2:15 pm

Please do post your logs. I'm not too surprised you can build a stack on a target dummy, since you are not going to parry it, but consistently getting 5 stacks does not jive with that PPM rate. A hotfix is certainly possible. I don't think this enchant got the usage they were intending.

Meliora wrote:So is the consensus that Blade Ward is not worth enchanting currently?
Well I wouldn't go that far. What the data we've seen so far suggests, is that it still probably provides the most average avoidance of the weapon enchants, but probably by less than one half of one percent. It's not all that expensive, but the difference is so small there are a few folks who just don't really care to bother with it.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Kwelzenda » Wed May 06, 2009 10:02 pm

Although I don't have any numbers to back it up, I was running with another tankadin today in H-UP and we were talking about weapon enchants after my Red Sword of Courage dropped. He said blade ward would proc on every 2-4 swings for him without fail. Unfortunately I couldn't verify this from the combat logs since I was tanking the instance and he was in ret spec/gear at the time. This was just something that came up in conversation after the run was done and we were doing a little theorycrafting.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby imapler » Wed May 06, 2009 11:55 pm

i ran ulduar last night with blade ward on, i was the third tank so i tanked the least which might give unfair results. the raid was 4h long
i cant really make out what it means hopefully someone else can

http://wowwebstats.com/53kzcpwiz2bqa?ab=64442
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 07, 2009 12:04 am

imapler wrote:i ran ulduar last night with blade ward on, i was the third tank so i tanked the least which might give unfair results. the raid was 4h long
i cant really make out what it means hopefully someone else can

http://wowwebstats.com/53kzcpwiz2bqa?ab=64442

Since it procs on attacks it won't matter that you weren't getting hit in terms of the proc rate. You were actively DPSing for 71 minutes and it proc'd for you 79 times. That lends itself to 1ppm, which is what most of the data that I have seen has pointed towards.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Candiru » Thu May 07, 2009 12:58 am

Does it have a chance to proc from HotR though? As that would lead to an increased ppm estimate from parsing logs etc if you were using that skill.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby neokai » Thu May 07, 2009 1:52 am

Candiru wrote:Does it have a chance to proc from HotR though? As that would lead to an increased ppm estimate from parsing logs etc if you were using that skill.


I don't think using HotR will affect the ppm imo.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu May 07, 2009 2:11 am

PPM get a chance to proce calculated off your weapon speed. Hence, instant attacks will have the same chance to proc, upping the chance you'll get it.
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