Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:27 am

Candiru wrote:
toothdecaykills wrote:Nowhere does this data suggest, represent, or even mention the potential times where Blade Ward caused a Dodge instead of consuming the Blade Ward charge. Since that is likely to occur, and so should at least be considered, I feel your data and experience is skewed.

Though one thing is for certain...this enchant most likely is not desirable for threat in any way.


Thats because blade warding cannot cause a dodge? It only boost parry chance.

If parry is before dodge on the combat table, it technically could.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:57 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Candiru wrote:
toothdecaykills wrote:Nowhere does this data suggest, represent, or even mention the potential times where Blade Ward caused a Dodge instead of consuming the Blade Ward charge. Since that is likely to occur, and so should at least be considered, I feel your data and experience is skewed.

Though one thing is for certain...this enchant most likely is not desirable for threat in any way.


Thats because blade warding cannot cause a dodge? It only boost parry chance.

If parry is before dodge on the combat table, it technically could.


This is what I was eluding at. I think it was already mentioned in this thread. My point being, we need to consider these things in order to properly paint a clearer picture. This effect I'm suggesting, where blade ward triggers a dodge for what normally would have been a hit (by shifting the combat table) may not actually impact anything. However, presenting your data without all this information seems to me like ignorance in service of bias.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:08 am

Well I'm not sure that that has been proven, and it's going to have a very small effect on the overall power of the buff.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:23 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well I'm not sure that that has been proven, and it's going to have a very small effect on the overall power of the buff.


Really, the whole line of reasoning is rather pointless. Regardless of the ordering of dodge/parry on the combat table, 200 parry rating increases your avoidance by the amount of avoidance added by 200 parry rating, neither less nor more. Suppose that 200 parry rating provided 2% avoidance (not accurate, chosen for convenience), and that you have 10% miss, 20% parry, 20% dodge, 50% block without the proc.

If parry comes first, when the proc is up, the combat table looks like:

1-10 miss
11-32 parry
33-52 dodge
53-100 block

If dodge comes first, it's
1-10 miss
11-30 dodge
31-52 parry
53-100 block

In either case, the proc adds 2% avoidance in the form of parry, the ordering of items on the table is irrelevant.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:40 am

Dorvan wrote:
In either case, the proc adds 2% avoidance in the form of parry, the ordering of items on the table is irrelevant.


Incorrect. The proc adds 2% avoidance UNTIL you parry. This is an important distinction as a Dodge under the effects of the proc will not consume the buff, thus increasing the total duration and benefit.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:42 am

toothdecaykills wrote:
Dorvan wrote:
In either case, the proc adds 2% avoidance in the form of parry, the ordering of items on the table is irrelevant.


Incorrect. The proc adds 2% avoidance UNTIL you parry. This is an important distinction as a Dodge under the effects of the proc will not consume the buff, thus increasing the total duration and benefit.


That's irrelevant, because the proc doesn't increase your dodge chance at all. Look at those 2 tables. In both of them your parry chance is 22% and your dodge chance is 20%. The size of the number ranges is the only thing that matters, how that size is distributed over the number line is an irrelevant implementation detail.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby QuantumDelta » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:44 am

The only way it would effect your dodge chance is (negatively) assuming it's before dodge on the attack table, which, as was mentioned before, hasn't been proven, and your total avoidance (pre-block) was over 102.4% (not gonna happen any time soon).
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:44 am

Well dodge isn't increased it is just shifted. While you could have a dodge that you wouldn't have otherwise due to a shift of it on the attack table, it is offset by the increase in parry giving you a parry where you would have previously had a dodge. Now if dodge is first on the list, there is no shift for it. I tend to agree with Dorvan, that mathematically it doesn't matter when averaged over time.

EDIT: Others beat me to it.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:56 am

I suppose a shift in the table that enables a dodge rather than hit is equally likely as a parry that could have been a dodge. In the case of a parry instead of a dodge, you were already going to avoid the attack anyway and have instead gained a minor addition to your TPS. In the other case, of a dodge instead of a hit, you end up avoiding an attack you otherwise would not have AND the buff remains to do it again.

Although I'm starting to think the overall proc chance is what's causing the underwhelming feeling towards this enchant...
Last edited by toothdecaykills on Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby QuantumDelta » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:58 am

In my head this enchant registers in a few ways;

It d/r's with itself and your gear.
It benefits from having more dodge/miss avoidance over parry.
It's kinda flimsy because it removes itself with the mechanism it supports.
The damage component seems to be a close to non-entity.


I would love to see math how much real avoidance it represents over the course of a 6-15 minute fight but I'm afraid I don't have the energy to math out the way it's effected by a bosses attack speed and by your own stats :I
Hopefully one of the boffins better versed than I will take a bash at it at some point, but it's a lot to take into account for an equation ;/

And tooth - that has nothing to do with the enchant though.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:05 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:And tooth - that has nothing to do with the enchant though.


I meant moreso that we'd see a greater amount of interest in it's effects if it stacked more often (which I believe it does stack). If I'm not mistaken, a higher proc chance would make this happen?
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:04 pm

toothdecaykills wrote:Although I'm starting to think the overall proc chance is what's causing the underwhelming feeling towards this enchant...


That's a big part of it, it rarely procs, it doesn't give you all that much when it does proc, and the proc can be consumed prematurely. It's a poorly designed enchant. Adjustments to any one of those though could make it go from, about the same as all the other enchants, to finally having a tanking enchant.

It seems like blizzards idea of a tanking enchant here wasn't to make something that was any better than what we already have, but merely to have an enchant that only tanks would want.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:12 pm

Double the proc chance, halve the bonus, put an internal CD on the damage portion. BAM! Cool enchant.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:14 pm

That would be worse actually.
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Re: Enchant Weapon: Blade Ward - testing results

Postby Lave » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:12 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:I would love to see math how much real avoidance it represents over the course of a 6-15 minute fight but I'm afraid I don't have the energy to math out the way it's effected by a bosses attack speed and by your own stats :I

you cannot really tell.. since the proccchance is extremly low and no ppm
it might not even proc in your bossfight (0%) or be always up (~3%). heck
it might even stack (~5%) tho this is extremly unlikely

taken from the wws posted here the avg. uptime for the procc is like 20%
- thats would be 0.6% average avoidance (still assuming it wont ever stack)
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