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So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:57 am

Candiru wrote:The crit is nice though for threat.

That's my main thought. Agi is a slight loss in avoidance, a slight gain in EH, and overall a very slight loss in survival all compared to dodge rating. It's basically free crit, imo.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:00 am

Sahiel wrote:Yep, 16 dodge ruby. It's at the end of the list of designs, with the agi/stam one.


Thank you! I checked this morning after seeing your post and there it was. I'd made the (improper) assumption that it would be with the other gems of its ilk, not slotted into the end after the metas.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby Jazmine » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:44 pm

I would go with agility, as it is a avoidance + threat boost.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby Awyndel » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:14 am

So when comparing dodge to armor/crit you suddenly fall back on itemlevel.

Aren't we completely ignoring itemlevel when it comes to avoidance vs stamina? Or does 8 dodge not have the same item level as 12 stamina?
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby vexryn » Wed May 06, 2009 6:10 am

Majiben wrote:For some people, not all. It's a minor difference and a personal choice.


Majiben,
Thanks for your guidance in this thread and the math on this.

I'm finding that with 20k-25k incoming boss hits from Ulduar, this seems to be quite appealing and I'm looking to swap out all of my regal twilight opals with shifting twilight opals.

Given how close the overall ipoints comparison is, trading off some avoidance for armor on an "equal" basis is becoming quite appealing for these huge single target physical incoming hits as a main tank.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby Kelaan » Wed May 06, 2009 11:26 am

If we gain ~30 armor from swapping to agility flavored gems rather than dodge ones, how much damage would that shave off of a 20k hit, though? I realize that it is more EH, but ... the difference seems so minor! I guess it's just a bigger difference than the lost dodge%, so it works out.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby Candiru » Wed May 06, 2009 3:17 pm

For some reason tankpoints is telling me that 16agi is worth far far more than 16dodge rating for pure avoidance. I don't know what's wrong with it. Does anyone else get tankpoints telling them the same thing (in the +16 of X gives X avoidance section.) Looks like a bug...
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby vexryn » Wed May 06, 2009 3:52 pm

Kelaan wrote:If we gain ~30 armor from swapping to agility flavored gems rather than dodge ones, how much damage would that shave off of a 20k hit, though? I realize that it is more EH, but ... the difference seems so minor! I guess it's just a bigger difference than the lost dodge%, so it works out.


Kelaan wrote:If we gain ~30 armor from swapping to agility flavored gems rather than dodge ones, how much damage would that shave off of a 20k hit, though? I realize that it is more EH, but ... the difference seems so minor! I guess it's just a bigger difference than the lost dodge%, so it works out.



I'm trying to do some of the math on this, and it looks like the mitigation from the extra armor is always less than the average ttl from the dodge. The interesting thing is that I'm not sure I care - I'm leaning towards changing my regal twilights to shifting twilights anyway.

Here's the math I'm looking at. I'm sure someone here will correct any mistakes I'm making...

For the time being, I'm compared one regal twilight to one shifting twilight. At the margin, 8 dodge or 8 agility.

The 8 dodge rating gives me .2033% dodge (8 / 39.35).

The 8 agility gives me .1696% dodge (8 * .8342 / 39.35). It also gives me 17.6 armor (assuming kings, using Majiben's numbers earlier in this thread). Assuming I already have ~26000 armor, that reduces an 80000 incoming hit by a little under 13 damage (I'm rounding off here, since I pulled the starting armor value from thin air to some extent).

So I can either have .2033% dodge, or .1696% dodge and a reduction of 13 damage per 80k hit. Now, over time the extra .0337% dodge from the dodge gem will avoid an 'average' of 26.96 damage (80k x .0337%, albeit only getting a real dodge one in a very blue moon).

So the pure mitigation value of the agility seems less than the dodge (although the gap would ostensibly narrow the higher my base dodge is already and the more diminishing returns set in). HOWEVER, I'm still somewhat persuaded by the raw numbers. At the margin, I'm giving up .0337% dodge. That's one dodge in only every 3,000 swings or so. So I'll see one dodge every few DOZEN boss attempts? On the other hand, 13 damage per swing - while also a pretty darn small amount of damage - would add up to over 1,000 damage over the course of a fight, and has the possibility of providing an actual "survival moment" that wouldn't have otherwise happened. Stacking three such gems would still mean you give up barely 0.1% dodge, or one dodge every 10 fights? (I'm assuming fights have no more than about 100 swings per attempt with slow swing timers, on a fight like Deconstructor (including downtime for heart phases) or the initial portion of the Iron Council fight tanking Steelbreaker.) On the other hand, 3 shifting twilights is up to 40-ish damage mitigated per hit, or 80 damage over the course of two melee swings. Now that's material. I've certainly have killing blows on me with less than 80 points of overkill.

Not that I'm trying to diminish the value of avoidance, because I'm a huge fan of it. But at the margin with such huge hits, I'm really finding a lot more value to stacking some agility and getting more armor. Getting closer to the point where I survive two or three consecutive hits with little or no healing (for any reason - healer had to move, lag spike, bad luck RNG, whatever) seems FAR more valuable than the next 0.0X% in dodge.

Is my math wrong? Logic flawed? Someone shoot me down on this before I go replace all my regal twilights with shifting twilights! :)
(And yeah, there's a threat bonus too, but I'm ignoring that benefit for the time being. I'll think of it as an added "kicker" if I decide I like the +agi anyway on a purely defensive basis.)
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby majiben » Wed May 06, 2009 10:17 pm

Avoidance is not mitigation and the agility gems can not lose to the dodge gems in that department because of that.

Additionally there is talk about armor from agility being affected by inspiration and AF boosting its value more.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby neokai » Thu May 07, 2009 2:15 am

Majiben wrote:Avoidance is not mitigation and the agility gems can not lose to the dodge gems in that department because of that.

Additionally there is talk about armor from agility being affected by inspiration and AF boosting its value more.


I.e. Majiben is saying that for Ulduar EH tanks, we might want to consider Agi/stam gems instead of the dodge/stam variety. I'm semi-sold, just waiting on my T8.5 gear to drop (with its 4 red slots) before i make the change.

P.S. I'm a EH/threat whore sitting on an underwhelming 35% avoidance and a whopping 1.9k block value unbuffed. The bad news is that I will prob not be MT anytime soon, but pvp is pretty fun when i crit 12k shield slams on unsuspecting mages lol.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu May 07, 2009 7:56 am

Vexryn wrote:Assuming I already have ~26000 armor, that reduces an 80000 incoming hit by a little under 13 damage (I'm rounding off here, since I pulled the starting armor value from thin air to some extent).

So I can either have .2033% dodge, or .1696% dodge and a reduction of 13 damage per 80k hit. Now, over time the extra .0337% dodge from the dodge gem will avoid an 'average' of 26.96 damage (80k x .0337%, albeit only getting a real dodge one in a very blue moon).


Are you reducing the hit by armor before multiplying by the avoidance? Because if you factor in that the attack is already reduced to around 20-25k, the armor comes out clearly on top.

Which is actually really terrifying. That would imply that armor on items is pretty much directly superior to dodge rating in itemization... how about that. That has all sorts of gearing repercussions. Am I missing something? Maybe it's just that 80k is a big hit even for Ulduar.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby vexryn » Thu May 07, 2009 10:34 am

theothersteve7 wrote:
Vexryn wrote:Assuming I already have ~26000 armor, that reduces an 80000 incoming hit by a little under 13 damage (I'm rounding off here, since I pulled the starting armor value from thin air to some extent).

So I can either have .2033% dodge, or .1696% dodge and a reduction of 13 damage per 80k hit. Now, over time the extra .0337% dodge from the dodge gem will avoid an 'average' of 26.96 damage (80k x .0337%, albeit only getting a real dodge one in a very blue moon).


Are you reducing the hit by armor before multiplying by the avoidance? Because if you factor in that the attack is already reduced to around 20-25k, the armor comes out clearly on top.

Which is actually really terrifying. That would imply that armor on items is pretty much directly superior to dodge rating in itemization... how about that. That has all sorts of gearing repercussions. Am I missing something? Maybe it's just that 80k is a big hit even for Ulduar.



I'm multiplying the avoidance before accounting for the armor, since I view it as a tradeoff - either I'll take another X% dodge for the base hit, or Y% armor for the base hit.

I don't think that 80k is an unusually big UNmitigated hit for Ulduar though. Bosses that hit for 20k-25k (at least in Ulduar 25) after your fully buffed 65%-75% mitigation were hitting you for 60k-100k as an unmitigated base physical hit.

To me, the defining factor is the size of the hit. When I'm getting hit for 15k unmitigated, or 4k-6k mitigated, the last bit of armor isn't likely to be the difference between an overkill hit or not. But as the hit size and the health pools get bigger, I find it more and more potential that the last bit of armor actually could mitigate the difference between an overkill hit and not.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby Dorvan » Thu May 07, 2009 12:08 pm

What he was asking is whether you're multiplying the dodge by the unmitigated hit size, or the hit size after armor. Clearly you should be multiply it by the post-armor damage amount to get the average damage reduction from the dodge because the alternative to dodging is taking a post armor hit, not taking 80k damage. Likewise, you should multiply the armor benefit by your current avoidance to really get a "per swing damage reduction" number.
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby majiben » Thu May 07, 2009 12:30 pm

There has been some discussion of the value of replacing all dodge on gear with agility. That was mostly a musing on how blizzard could have limited avoidance creeping up and a way to prevent diminishing returns on ilvl. Changing all the dodge to agility is a significant boost in Armor
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Re: So now that theres stam/agl purple gems again....

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu May 07, 2009 12:54 pm

With trinkets popped I hit 1229 dodge rating. This is kind of stupid. I've changed my 5 regals (dodge/stam) for shifting (agil/stam).
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