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+2% Threat or +20 Spell Dmg for gloves?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Mithos » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:37 pm

Yup that's why I posted just to make sure as I saw two different statements concerning the threashold at which 2% threat becomes better. Thank you for the replies all :).
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Postby corc » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:49 am

mithoss wrote:Yup that's why I posted just to make sure as I saw two different statements concerning the threashold at which 2% threat becomes better. Thank you for the replies all :).


No biggie, I just wanted to point out that I wasn't countering anything, just converting TPS from the original threashold to +DAM which are related but not the same.
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Postby Dorvan » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:50 am

DJSticky wrote:
Rainge wrote:
Noradin wrote:Being a threat and not a dmg multiplicator it should add to righteous fury, causing your holydamage to do 192% aggro and nonholydamage 102% aggro.


If that's the case, I'll probably keep 20 SD on my gloves.


As far as the benifit of 20 sd vs 2% threat it doesn't matter if it's additive or multiplicitive. The fact still remains 2% scales with your spell damage and +20 spell damage does not. The question of additive vs Multiplicitive is simply what is a rough approximation of the amount of spell damage when +2% becomes better.

I personaly put it on my gloves right away and will continue to put it on gloves I get in the future.


Actually, it matters quite a bit. The 2% will always scale with your gear, but if it's additive instead of multiplicative it's an effective increase of 1.05% to your holy threat and therefore your gear isn't realistically going to scale high enough (or if nothing else, you'll have replaced your gloves long before then ;) ). Going back to the earlier numbers, that would mean that the threat equivalence threshold is:

T + 12.6 = 1.0105 T

or 1200 tps.

The actual threshold would be slightly lower as we do get some threat from white damage and that would still get a 2% boost, but the bottom line is that if the bonus is additive with righteous fury then 20 spell damage is the superior to 2% threat. Any further insight into whether it's additive or multiplicative would be much appreciated.

edit --

spell damage conversion for the above:

(1200-328)/.68 = 1282 +dam (ouch)
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Postby DJSticky » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:50 pm

I understand the difference between additive and multiplicitive.

But I'm not sure were these TPS and Spelldmg numbers you are using as your guidline come from. From your edit it looks like you are trying to say you need 1282 spell damage to make +2% threat better. Are you taking into account that our different abilities have different spell damage coeficients and +20 Spell damage has more or less benifit to them? If the TPS threshold is 1200 tps no were near 1282 spell damage is needed to produce that, windfury and 400 spell damage lets me see 1200tps on alot of monsters.

I'm not doubting your actual math I just don't think that a single equation will answer all questions in reguards to over all threat gen and the effectiveness of +20 vs 2%
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Postby Dorvan » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:19 pm

I wasn't doing anything very sophisticated on the spell damage calculation, just reusing corc's number of 328 base tps plus .68 tps/dam. If those numbers don't hold, the calculation is meaningless

The single target cutoff of 1200 tps was my main point, however, and should be in the right ballpark for the additive case. Let me run my own numbers real quick and see what I come up with (I've been away from this for 3 months, humor me ;)):

Threat per second per spell damage:

SoR: .092
JoR: .78 / 8 = .0975
Cons: .96 / 8 = .12
Holy Shield: 2 * .05 / 10 = .01 (assumes 2 blocks every 10 seconds)

all * 1.9 for righteous fury

Total: .607 threat per second per spell damage

20 * .607 = 12.14 tps from the +20 spell damage enchant

Pulling from this old post (http://failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/ ... .php?t=599) that auto attack makes up 12% of your threat (almost certainly an overestimate as your spell damage goes up, let me know if you have more up-to-date figures):

Threat from 2% threat enchant = .88 * (.0105) + .12 * .02 = .01164

Now for the threat cutoff:

T + 12.14 = 1.01164 T

T ~= 1040 tps

This would suggest that if the threat enchant is additive, you need at least 1040 sustained tps for the % enchant to be superior. Note the if you are using windfury, the tps you get from the spell damage enchant also goes up a bit. Also note that this number is only for single-mob tanking. If you're generating a combined 1k+ threat from multiple mobs, the spell damage enchant will be generating much more than 12.1 tps.

Exact numbers aside, I'm just curious as to whether the enchant is additive or multiplicative because I know that in practical tanking situations I'm not generating 1000 tps, so this difference the difference between threat and spell damage for my purposes.
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Postby corc » Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:33 pm

DJSticky wrote:I understand the difference between additive and multiplicitive.

But I'm not sure were these TPS and Spelldmg numbers you are using as your guidline come from. From your edit it looks like you are trying to say you need 1282 spell damage to make +2% threat better. Are you taking into account that our different abilities have different spell damage coeficients and +20 Spell damage has more or less benifit to them? If the TPS threshold is 1200 tps no were near 1282 spell damage is needed to produce that, windfury and 400 spell damage lets me see 1200tps on alot of monsters.

I'm not doubting your actual math I just don't think that a single equation will answer all questions in reguards to over all threat gen and the effectiveness of +20 vs 2%


all this info, math and threat and junk, is from the FIRST sticky in this section.

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... .php?t=241

It's a good read, and the comments are interesting too so read all the pages. Every paladin tank should know what they are capable of :)
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