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Stat Weight

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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:44 pm

Ok, I've found some calculators and such, and I just need to figure out one piece of relative scaling to associate things for me.

I've got all my avoidance stats weighted relatively, and I've got my EH stats weighted relatively, assuming a certain hit size (I picked 18000 post-block for my "boss weights"). Independently these weight scales can let me rank avoidance gear and EH gear. Putting them together lets me rank TTL gear, but I need to find a normalization factor between my avoidance weights and my EH weights.

The Tankspot calc does TTL (well, it does total DR... same thing), but it only has 2 decimal places and I have no idea what its hit size is. I guess I could do my own DR calc in a spreadsheet with a lot of significant digits... and maybe that'd even make sense since as I get more gear the numbers will skew a bit.

For a TTL-esque calculation I should be able to just scale my EH by my total avoidance... is that enough to associate the two?

-- I guess I should've known that I was going to just break down and figure this out...

I chose a base hit size of 40,000. My stats are somewhere around 37k hps, 27k armor, and 1500 BV. I varied everything independently from there by 1, and did a full 1% avoidance but scaled it down to 1 dodge rating. At my DR, I need about 52.5 dodge rating for 1% avoidance. I then assumed everything was scaling similiarly due to my balance of dodge (~500) and parry (~300). It's pretty close to true.

Starting with an armor weight of 10 as a reference point, for overall TTL-ish value I got the following:
Dodge: 178.549
Def: 171.363
Agi: 170.382 (with 2.2x armor weight added)
Parry: 142.861
Stam: 138.347
BV: 28.622
Str: 18.103
Armor: 10

So that tells me the weights I've been using were greatly favoring BV (I actually guessed at 30 today to tweak it down), and undervaluing avoidance. Funny that all the avoidance stats are worth more than stamina, but scaling up the stamina weight by 1.5 shows that budget-wise, stamina's still better for me. It also shows that EoG is roughly 2x as "hefty" as a defender's code, for example, in terms of stam vs. armor.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby æ » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:53 pm

@ Rasmfrackn

I made a shitty spreadsheet still in the early stage, but its attempting to do as youre saying. Take a look if youd like. (zomg why wont it let me upload xls?)
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:38 am

Does armor from agility get scaled by toughness? I know bonus armor doesn't, but that doesn't necessarily seem like the same thing.

-- Also, very pretty spreadsheet. I wouldn't even want to post mine after seeing it. :)
Shouldn't you adjust your agility ratio, though? It'd be a lot easier than converting every 1 agi into 1.1 agi somehow somewhere else.
I may have to grab some of those formulas for the DR calculations instead of eyeballing it, though, thanks.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby majiben » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:57 am

Armor from agility doesn't scale with toughness.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Eanin » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:25 pm

There's no such thing as a single scale for all stats. If you think there is, you're just making stuff up. You can only measure things on a single scale, like EH, avoidance, threat and so forth.

Trying to weigh dodge against stamina is like trying to decide if the sky is bluer than the coffee is hot.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:12 pm

Eanin wrote:There's no such thing as a single scale for all stats. If you think there is, you're just making stuff up. You can only measure things on a single scale, like EH, avoidance, threat and so forth.

Trying to weigh dodge against stamina is like trying to decide if the sky is bluer than the coffee is hot.


Oh, I don't know... it all comes together for a "time to live" type of number. You may only care about EH for a worst-case scenario, and you may want to directly compare avoidance stats to see their relative power, but expected time to live (be it in terms of scaled up hps or # of swings till death or whatever) is valuable too. It becomes more valuable a metric as you are less in danger of spike damage killing you.

-- The nice thing about merging EH stats with avoidance stats is that they're still relatively independent. You can use the exact same numbers of armor/stam/BV for a purely EH weighting, or the exact same avoidance weights for a purely avoidance-based ranking. The only thing that changes is agility remains in the EH stats at a drastically reduced value of 2.2x armor.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:59 pm

Personally my goal for this was just to come up with a stat weight that listed existing gear in the order that I personally value them. That's not difficult.

Also my bad on the avoidance thing. Screw copy-paste.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby majiben » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:34 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
Eanin wrote:There's no such thing as a single scale for all stats. If you think there is, you're just making stuff up. You can only measure things on a single scale, like EH, avoidance, threat and so forth.

Trying to weigh dodge against stamina is like trying to decide if the sky is bluer than the coffee is hot.


Oh, I don't know... it all comes together for a "time to live" type of number. You may only care about EH for a worst-case scenario, and you may want to directly compare avoidance stats to see their relative power, but expected time to live (be it in terms of scaled up hps or # of swings till death or whatever) is valuable too. It becomes more valuable a metric as you are less in danger of spike damage killing you.

-- The nice thing about merging EH stats with avoidance stats is that they're still relatively independent. You can use the exact same numbers of armor/stam/BV for a purely EH weighting, or the exact same avoidance weights for a purely avoidance-based ranking. The only thing that changes is agility remains in the EH stats at a drastically reduced value of 2.2x armor.

TTL is not a single scale, it's different for each boss.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:54 am

Majiben wrote:TTL is not a single scale, it's different for each boss.

Right, which is why there's a consideration for hit size.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby majiben » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:09 am

And speed.

It does not take into account healability.

I'm sure a tank 500k health, no avoidance or mitigation but a 95% healing debuff would have a very long time to live but would be unhealable.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:51 am

Majiben wrote:And speed.

Depends on what you use for your time scale.

It does not take into account healability.

Just like effective health...

I'm sure a tank 500k health, no avoidance or mitigation but a 95% healing debuff would have a very long time to live but would be unhealable.

I'll be sure to not wear that gear, then.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby majiben » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:55 am

Well you claimed TTL was the single measure by which all gear could be judged absolutely which I have shown is wrong. If you used TTL as your absolute measure then you would have to take the tank with 500k hp.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:08 am

Majiben wrote:Well you claimed TTL was the single measure by which all gear could be judged absolutely which I have shown is wrong. If you used TTL as your absolute measure then you would have to take the tank with 500k hp.

If you think that's what I claimed, then I think you claimed that TTL is different due to a boss' name and not the size of his hits. Throwing in the 95% healing debuff was a nice touch.

Scaling effective health by avoidance, i.e. placing all the survival stats on a single weight scale, is its own useful metric that tells you your overall survivability. Are you saying that's not a useful number? It's about knowing how to use the numbers and information presented.

-- Also, your "proof" is just as relevant to pure EH as it is to TTL. A 500k hp tank with no armor is by far the highest EH tank in the game, and we all love EH, right? If you constrain yourself to stat combinations that are possible in the game, everything looks a lot more reasonable.
Last edited by Rasmfrackn on Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rhî » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:15 am

Majiben wrote:Those avoidance weightings are way off.


Yes, it's not per point, it's 16 point of def / dodge /parry converts into x / y / z avoidance. And these numbers are for a max dps gear with very low avoidance. Ulduar-Progress gear is more like 16 points converts into 0,23%; 0,29%; 0,2% avoidance.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby æ » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:32 pm

Dont forget block! >=O

I know its not avoidance :mrgreen:
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