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Stat Weight

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Stat Weight

Postby Orithius » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:29 pm

Looking for a good stat weight for pawn, anyone got one?
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby kenshin648 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:56 pm

Uh...what?
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby majiben » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:04 pm

There is no good one because we are tanks not dps.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:15 am

Well, if you wanted to you could weight individual things like threat, EH, and avoidance. These are per point, and some points are cheaper than others. I'm omitting stats that you shouldn't find on your gear.

Threat (Thanks to Theck, /worship)
27.5 STR
24 Hit
15 Exp
12 BV
2 STA

Avoidance (taken from Rhî's spreadsheet)
25 Dodge
31 Defense
24 Parry

EH (taken from Tankspot's EH calc and my semi-typical values)
Stamina 24
Armor 1

Note that none of these take into account block rating, defense minimum, magic damage, hit/expertise caps, or a balanced tank. If I used Pawn, these are roughly the values I'd give it:

90 Stamina
25 Strength
120 Defense
120 Dodge
80 Parry
70 Block Rating
25 Block Value
25 Hit
15 Expertise
3.75 Armor

Turns up the right prioritization for most gear, anyway. Somewhat undervalues threat stats but that's the only way it doesn't go for the tier helm. I basically plugged numbers into wowhead until I got gear priorities that looked right. Belt is a little messed up but results will be within a few points of accurate. Obviously this is on a piece-by-piece basis; depending on the fight and the rest of your gear the actual value of a piece will differ.

I highly recommend learning the nuances of tanking gear before getting too hardcore about it. However, this is a good guide for building up an offset if tanking isn't your primary thing.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby majiben » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:39 am

Those avoidance weightings are way off.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby rokkon » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:22 pm

I am a recent convert from ret to prot so I feel the OP's pain. As ret you're trained with a set stat priority, a set talent list, and a set gear priority all neatly packaged into a do-this-or-you're-a-nub box.

The more I learn about the switch from ret to prot the more I appreciate actually being able to use my brain to make decisions as opposed to a cookie cutter spec sheet. While there are good guidelines, and also a few absolute minimums (540 def comes to mind) I am finding the only thing that really tells me what stats I need to work on is running with my guild and seeing where I fall short in certain situations.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:52 pm

Don't forget agility as an avoidance stat. It's certainly better than parry, and I prefer it to dodge when I'm gemming now that the agi/stam opal cut is finally available.

Sticking within a certain field makes it much easier, like steve said. You can compare all the avoidance stats, you can compare stamina and armor (and maybe BV, kinda), and you can compare threat. A comprehensive comparison doesn't make sense for a tank because threat and avoidance and EH aren't different ways of achieving the same thing... they're fundamentally different.

The only problem with avoidance stats is DR, but if you take some general concession to DR and assume everything's diminishing at about the same rate, it's not too hard to ignore. I assume my avoidance stats diminish at about the same rate, because I'm usually close to 540 def, and I have ~500 dodge but only ~200 parry. If you take a lot of the "BIS" pieces with parry on them, you'd probably need to reduce parry's weight even further.

For pure avoidance, the you need the following ratings per 1% avoidance:
dodge: 39.35
parry: 49.18
agi: 47.35
defense: 41

Inverting those (1000 / x) to get "avoidance value per budget" you'd get:
dodge: 25.4
parry: 20.33
agi: 21.12
defense: 24.4

If you take the time to find your relative DR scalings for each type of avoidance, you can adjust them more finely. (A mod like tankadin or ratingbuster would help here.)

For EH, if you're including block value it depends on the size of the hit. If you ignore block value (aren't you a paladin?! ;) ) then the weight of stam vs armor depends on how much of each you have, and there are calculators around (i think tankspot has one) to figure that out.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Orithius » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:47 pm

Ah alright, thanks for the advice. I guess I'll use a TPS/EH weight & Ratingsbuster. Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby æ » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:29 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:For pure avoidance, the you need the following ratings per 1% avoidance:
dodge: 39.35
parry: 49.18
agi: 47.35
defense: 41

Inverting those (1000 / x) to get "avoidance value per budget" you'd get:
dodge: 25.4
parry: 20.33
agi: 21.12
defense: 24.4



Honestly you might as well not even include parry at all. Its already in near last place before DR starts to even take hold and it suffers from DR more than anything else.

Agi to dodge% starts out at 52.1 by the way, or 19.19 value points. The thing is with it is that it also gives AC and critz, not to mention that if you have heroic+ quality gear on, then DR is already in effect rendering Parry well behind Agi in terms of avoidance alone once again.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:46 pm

æ wrote:Honestly you might as well not even include parry at all. Its already in near last place before DR starts to even take hold and it suffers from DR more than anything else.

Agi to dodge% starts out at 52.1 by the way, or 19.19 value points. The thing is with it is that it also gives AC and critz, not to mention that if you have heroic+ quality gear on, then DR is already in effect rendering Parry well behind Agi in terms of avoidance alone once again.


Well, I assume Kings so I scale up agi by 10%. :) The armor seems to about cover the loss of avoidance, so I consider agi to be free threat over dodge. What scale are "value points" on?

I can't just not include parry at all, because it does something. I certainly would never gem for it, but 60 parry is certainly better than 20-30 dodge until you get an amazing imbalance between the two. I agree the DR penalties on parry are a lot harsher than dodge, which is kinda strange imo and must have some PvP reason or something.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 pm

æ wrote:Honestly you might as well not even include parry at all. Its already in near last place before DR starts to even take hold and it suffers from DR more than anything else.

Agi to dodge% starts out at 52.1 by the way, or 19.19 value points. The thing is with it is that it also gives AC and critz, not to mention that if you have heroic+ quality gear on, then DR is already in effect rendering Parry well behind Agi in terms of avoidance alone once again.

I know this may sound odd coming from me, since I've often seen fit to pile on the hate when it comes to parry rating, but this isn't really a good gearing strategy. Yes, parry gets hit harder by diminishing returns, but not so hard that it's useless. It's never worth completely discounting.

For example, a piece with 55+ parry rating may still be an upgrade over a piece with 40ish dodge rating in terms of raw avoidance, even at current gear levels. Your best bet is to use an addon such as RatingBuster which will do the calculation for you on the fly. This thread on tankspot is a good reference too, if you like doing things by hand for each item. :P

The only "problem" with the values Rasmfrackn gave (and not due to any fault of his own) is that they are likely to vary a lot based on what gear you already have. In other words, if you already have a lot of parry gear, parry will be worth less than usual - similarly if you have lots of dodge, etc. It will be hard to come up with a weighting system that reflects this well without using a formula that uses your current parry, dodge, and defense ratings to calculate the weight values.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby æ » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:00 pm

True True, dont discount it fully. I ment on a point per point basis and got carried away!

MY HATE FOR PARRY IS STRONG LIKE THE OX.

But if they started to replace parry with agi point per point on some tank gear... its mine i saw it first. Shotgun, Dibs, ect.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby daemonym » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:56 pm

theckhd wrote:
For example, a piece with 55+ parry rating may still be an upgrade over a piece with 40ish dodge rating in terms of raw avoidance, even at current gear levels. Your best bet is to use an addon such as RatingBuster which will do the calculation for you on the fly. This thread on tankspot is a good reference too, if you like doing things by hand for each item. :P


this is the exact reason that i am hoping that the parry trinket drops from saph. as iirc, parry > dodge rating at like 600 dodge rating. and i am rapidly approaching that number, so atm parry is a good thign to gear for if i want to avoid more.
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby agnara » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:07 am

daemonym wrote:
theckhd wrote:<smart stuff>


this is the exact reason that i am hoping that the parry trinket drops from saph. as iirc, parry > dodge rating at like 600 dodge rating. and i am rapidly approaching that number, so atm parry is a good thign to gear for if i want to avoid more.


That's not how it works, the asumption was that it would be better if you had 600 dodge rating, and virtually no parry rating. I don't think they even added defence rating in to that asumption, and that would require you to have an even higher dodge/parry ratio for parry to overtake dodge. Not to say that parry rating is useless, I like it like any other avoidance, (by looking at it as % after DR, as you should be).
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Re: Stat Weight

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:50 am

theckhd wrote:The only "problem" with the values Rasmfrackn gave (and not due to any fault of his own) is that they are likely to vary a lot based on what gear you already have. In other words, if you already have a lot of parry gear, parry will be worth less than usual - similarly if you have lots of dodge, etc. It will be hard to come up with a weighting system that reflects this well without using a formula that uses your current parry, dodge, and defense ratings to calculate the weight values.


Yeah, assuming the base ratios stay intact is pretty flimsy, but I haven't bothered to put together my own DR spreadsheet yet. Parry is pretty darn simple, but dodge isn't entirely due to some agi effects clouding it.

I did notice when comparing to a warrior yesterday whom I tank talk with, the difference between his 390 parry rating and my 290 parry rating puts us somewhere in the ~70 rating per 1% range instead of the base 50. I've noticed from swapping between a dodge trinket and a stam trinket that I'm getting maybe 70-75% of the maximum effect from dodge as well, so it's really close to the same loss there as the parry loss (leaving the relative values about the same). I usually ignore defense differences since most gear sets are within 10 or so skill of the minimum unless it's some sort of novelty for something.

(-- I'm generally running around in 500 dodge rating and 300 parry rating these days, and so far I've got 2 agi/stam gems though I expect I'll have more as I get nice socketed gear.)
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