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1/2 SA? what about benediction?

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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby toothdecaykills » Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:58 am

Torquemada wrote:
PsiVen wrote:I'm curious what bosses you could possibly need SoW on. I only run low on Loatheb, because he hits like a sissy.


Loatheb, Gluth(MTing or chow tanking), the trash leading up to Gothik, tanking the extra acolytes on Raz. Granted with Gluth I get a help from the devastates, and lately we're able to kill him after 1 or two max, but learning the fight I could not keep a full mana bar to save my life.

I also tend to have more problems when I go back and do Naxx10, admittedly.


If your DPS is doing their job properly, you most likely need to only be doing half your normal TPS. After all, the fight has a mechanic that almost completely removes threat from mattering.

The trash leading up to Gothik is an interesting comment...though I personally just pull more at a time. Also, with the acolytes on Raz, it'd probably be to your benefit to just use Seal of Light. After all, your only purpose here is to keep them off the healers. Providing yourself with some extra healing keeps up your survivability.

I've never really had issues in Naxx with mana except once. Picking up and tanking the mobs on the dead side for Gothik. My DPS likes to spread out (stupid antisocial bitches), but all it really took was me modifying what I'm doing in that fight. I'm not sure how things are different for you, but I've rarely found a situation that will make me go oom if I'm aware the problem had occurred before. I simply adapt.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Voldiir » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:25 pm

bene's worth getting 1 point in before 2/2 Imp. Judge for any serious tankadin IMO, and maybe worth 4/5 if you have a really reliable ret in situations where you're on the same mob.


This is part of my logic. 2/2 Imp Judge is never a good use of that one point IMO. In any situation where you are tanking, you should be using the 969 rotation. Even if you are skipping a step like Consecration, all that additional point is going to really do is screw up your timing later on. Unless you are doing content that doesn't matter. And that's my point.... if I'm doing easy content like a heroic, wouldn't Bene be a better option for longevity anyways?

As for maximum threat, I'll already be gaining an additional 3% crit and at least 2% more total damage dealt than what I'm running right now. And I'm not having threat issues. Not in 5 man or 25 man situations. I personally don't see much benefit in having HotC. But that's because I pretty much only run 25 mans and heroics. Meaning I've always got a ret pally in one situation, and in the other, I'd rather have the efficiency anyways.

I realize that 1/2 SA should be plenty for 25 mans. Esspecially ulduar, and even in Naxx when we are in full 25 man t8 gear. We still gain reactionary mana (just as much from BoSanc as we always would, plus SA, however... significantly less from SA due to taking less damage and only having it be 5%) and gain the new concept of active mana through DP. But will 1/2 SA be enough to take us through 5 mans without running out of mana mid boss fight? And is the assumption that "all we need is 1/2 SA" based on having 1/5 bene? None at all? What difference would it make to have 4/5 instead?
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Ascendant » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:46 pm

This is part of my logic. 2/2 Imp Judge is never a good use of that one point IMO. In any situation where you are tanking, you should be using the 969 rotation.


969 is not always the best way to go for trash. you will need spike threat on demand in a lot of situations, and having that extra second off judgment will be appreciated (assuming you aren't wasting that gcd refreshing holy shield or something).
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Postby toothdecaykills » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:16 am

Ascendant wrote:
This is part of my logic. 2/2 Imp Judge is never a good use of that one point IMO. In any situation where you are tanking, you should be using the 969 rotation.


969 is not always the best way to go for trash. you will need spike threat on demand in a lot of situations, and having that extra second off judgment will be appreciated (assuming you aren't wasting that gcd refreshing holy shield or something).


This. Or for any fight that includes a phase similar to Sartharion's adds. Having a lower cooldown means you can use it to pick up mobs faster. However, unless you are routinely off tanking these portions of the fight, the point may seem wasted. Then again, why wouldn't you be the add tank on these types of fight, they take more skill than standing around getting beat on by the blood dragon!
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Voldiir » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:06 am

I rarely OT anything. Unless it's just convienient to do so based on the raid composition. I tank drakes on sarth.

I still disagree with one second making any noticable difference, even in a trash scenario. You also don't need to stick to a routine 969 roation either, but still use it. For example, on most trash, I use Con before the mobs get to me, followed by HotR, judge, then ShoR. If I don't have aggro by then, there is something massively wrong. I've hit 3 mob with AS, 3 with HotR (potentially the same 3, but more often than not, at least one different target) all the while with Con and Blood corruption ticking. But I can continue the 969 rotation from there, just with a different starting point.

8 sec vs 9 sec will make little difference.

I've done a bit of math on my own regarding the DP intake, factoring in some average stats for BoSanc and SA, with 1-4/5 bene and compared them. Nothing really solid and a lot of rounding and averaging.... but while I agree that 1/2 SA is all that is required for 25 man content, heroics will drain you. 2/2 might not even be enough depending on the fight, when you consider even less damage taken in higher gear, as well as less maximum mana (less from DP) in a 5 man setting. So I'll probably go ahead and get 2/2 SA and 4/5 bene just so I never have to deal with it, ever. I lose 1% potential increased damage, but I'm already going to be gaining 3% crit and 2% increased damage from what I'm doing right now, and I don't have threat problems.

I can always change it if I find dps's threat increases faster than my own.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Venoseth » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:12 pm

Well, I guess I say things the way I do because I'm dropping SoV for SoWis when I'm low on mana and maintaining Kings instead of switching to Sanc.

The reason I do this is that I can start a pull with SoV / Kings and if I'm going to run out of mana well before the pull/fight's over, I use a GCD (usually the next Holy Shield CD) for SoWis (it costs next to nothing with the minor glyph) and that's usually enough to refill my blue rage bar quite a bit (usually combined with a DPlea cast at the end of the fight to top me off, but I guess I'll have to start using DPlea activly).

Do I lose a lot more DPS/TPS going Kings/SoWis as opposed to Sanc/SoV?
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Ascendant » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:10 pm

I rarely OT anything. Unless it's just convienient to do so based on the raid composition. I tank drakes on sarth.

I still disagree with one second making any noticable difference, even in a trash scenario. You also don't need to stick to a routine 969 roation either, but still use it. For example, on most trash, I use Con before the mobs get to me, followed by HotR, judge, then ShoR. If I don't have aggro by then, there is something massively wrong. I've hit 3 mob with AS, 3 with HotR (potentially the same 3, but more often than not, at least one different target) all the while with Con and Blood corruption ticking. But I can continue the 969 rotation from there, just with a different starting point.

8 sec vs 9 sec will make little difference.

I've done a bit of math on my own regarding the DP intake, factoring in some average stats for BoSanc and SA, with 1-4/5 bene and compared them. Nothing really solid and a lot of rounding and averaging.... but while I agree that 1/2 SA is all that is required for 25 man content, heroics will drain you. 2/2 might not even be enough depending on the fight, when you consider even less damage taken in higher gear, as well as less maximum mana (less from DP) in a 5 man setting. So I'll probably go ahead and get 2/2 SA and 4/5 bene just so I never have to deal with it, ever. I lose 1% potential increased damage, but I'm already going to be gaining 3% crit and 2% increased damage from what I'm doing right now, and I don't have threat problems.

I can always change it if I find dps's threat increases faster than my own.


if you are worried about mana for easy content, there are better ways to fix that. If you intend on raiding 25 player content, you should choose talents for that content that might actually be difficult. 1 point in benediction will go completely unnoticed, and any more than that would mean you are either dropping your threat or damage reduction by a more significant amount.

raiding isn't just bosses, and bosses aren't JUST single target melee damage. trash and bosses are dynamic; so don't assume a "trash tanking talent" is wasted if you think only boss tanking matters. And 1 point off judgment is only "comparatively" good.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Voldiir » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:48 pm

Ascendant wrote:
I rarely OT anything. Unless it's just convienient to do so based on the raid composition. I tank drakes on sarth.

I still disagree with one second making any noticable difference, even in a trash scenario. You also don't need to stick to a routine 969 roation either, but still use it. For example, on most trash, I use Con before the mobs get to me, followed by HotR, judge, then ShoR. If I don't have aggro by then, there is something massively wrong. I've hit 3 mob with AS, 3 with HotR (potentially the same 3, but more often than not, at least one different target) all the while with Con and Blood corruption ticking. But I can continue the 969 rotation from there, just with a different starting point.

8 sec vs 9 sec will make little difference.

I've done a bit of math on my own regarding the DP intake, factoring in some average stats for BoSanc and SA, with 1-4/5 bene and compared them. Nothing really solid and a lot of rounding and averaging.... but while I agree that 1/2 SA is all that is required for 25 man content, heroics will drain you. 2/2 might not even be enough depending on the fight, when you consider even less damage taken in higher gear, as well as less maximum mana (less from DP) in a 5 man setting. So I'll probably go ahead and get 2/2 SA and 4/5 bene just so I never have to deal with it, ever. I lose 1% potential increased damage, but I'm already going to be gaining 3% crit and 2% increased damage from what I'm doing right now, and I don't have threat problems.

I can always change it if I find dps's threat increases faster than my own.


if you are worried about mana for easy content, there are better ways to fix that. If you intend on raiding 25 player content, you should choose talents for that content that might actually be difficult. 1 point in benediction will go completely unnoticed, and any more than that would mean you are either dropping your threat or damage reduction by a more significant amount.

raiding isn't just bosses, and bosses aren't JUST single target melee damage. trash and bosses are dynamic; so don't assume a "trash tanking talent" is wasted if you think only boss tanking matters. And 1 point off judgment is only "comparatively" good.


How is anymore than one point in bene going to drop my threat? or damage reduction? At all? I get 4/5 bene as opposed to what? HotC? or Imp BoM? Both things a Ret pally will bring? 1 second off Judgement does not effect threat while using the 969 rotation, which I basically use while tanking trash. If the rest of you guys are skipping Holy Shield during trash pulls for a 1 second faster judge on one target, I feel sorry for your healers.

What better ways do you suggest to increase mana efficiency for easy content?

We're talking about the difference between SA and Crusade. Only one will be maxed out unless i sacrifice something in deep prot... which isn't going to happen. I'm opting to take 2/2 SA and 2/3 Crusade instead of 1/2 SA and 3/3 Crusade. 1% increased damage or 5% more mana taken in from SA. I'm choosing SA for the time being as my threat is fine, and even if threat tappers off at all in Ulduar, remember, I'm still getting a +3% crit and +2% increased damage from what I have now.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby toothdecaykills » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:20 pm

Voldiir wrote:How is anymore than one point in bene going to drop my threat? or damage reduction? At all? I get 4/5 bene as opposed to what? HotC? or Imp BoM? Both things a Ret pally will bring? 1 second off Judgement does not effect threat while using the 969 rotation, which I basically use while tanking trash. If the rest of you guys are skipping Holy Shield during trash pulls for a 1 second faster judge on one target, I feel sorry for your healers.


That is hardly the situation I was referring to. In cases similar to Sartharion as an add tank, nobody is DPSing your targets (they truly shouldn't be right out of the gate anyway) and thus your threat only needs to be enough to make them stick on you and not get big flaming hard-ons for your healers. In this case, having a faster Judgment, even if it is only 1 second, could mean the difference in picking things up with speed.

Of course I'm not truly condoning the use of the point here all the time, but its just as worthwhile a place to put it in as Benediction because it's just as useless.

Voldiir wrote:What better ways do you suggest to increase mana efficiency for easy content?


Tank more.

Voldiir wrote:We're talking about the difference between SA and Crusade. Only one will be maxed out unless i sacrifice something in deep prot... which isn't going to happen. I'm opting to take 2/2 SA and 2/3 Crusade instead of 1/2 SA and 3/3 Crusade. 1% increased damage or 5% more mana taken in from SA. I'm choosing SA for the time being as my threat is fine, and even if threat tappers off at all in Ulduar, remember, I'm still getting a +3% crit and +2% increased damage from what I have now.


And that is totally your choice. But it comes down to the point that with Divine Plea and BoSanc, you truly only need 1 point in Spiritual Attunement for almost all fights. A thread on the wow tanking forums actually dealt with this recently by using a section of Knaughty's 3.1 FAQ to express why 1/2 SA is all that is required. You can find that right here.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Candiru » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:07 am

Isn't there are fight were only SA will return mana to us? One of the Ulduar bosses stops DivinePlea/BoSanc from working I think.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby hoho » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:29 am

Candiru wrote:Isn't there are fight were only SA will return mana to us? One of the Ulduar bosses stops DivinePlea/BoSanc from working I think.
With that kind of mechanics I wouldn't be surprised if that boss hits exceptionally weak making even SA pretty weak :\

Though I've not seen any Ulduar bosses so maybe I might be wrong.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Worldie » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:26 am

hoho wrote:
Candiru wrote:Isn't there are fight were only SA will return mana to us? One of the Ulduar bosses stops DivinePlea/BoSanc from working I think.
With that kind of mechanics I wouldn't be surprised if that boss hits exceptionally weak making even SA pretty weak :\

That boss hits nowhere close to *weak*, if i'm not wrong base 20k+ melees.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Macktruck » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:23 am

http://www.wowwiki.com/General_Vezax

Confirmed that General Vezax does NOT hit like a sissy with the above link. Ginormous Lobster with massive pincers + General Status = OH BOY!
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:59 am

For another anecdotal data point, I went into Ulduar last night with 1/2 SA and never had mana problems, even while not explicitly tanking anything (i.e. not taking any damage).

I still haven't allocated that last point yet, because threat hasn't even been close (with 2/3 Crusade I was still pulling aggro off of the DK tank during XT-002 attempts, I actually had to Salv myself or hold back on most pulls - in his defense, he was having lag and framerate problems). I figure I may leave it unallocated until for another day or so to see whether the 2nd point of SA would come in useful on any of the other bosses, but it seems unlikely.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:52 pm

theckhd wrote:For another anecdotal data point, I went into Ulduar last night with 1/2 SA and never had mana problems, even while not explicitly tanking anything (i.e. not taking any damage).

I still haven't allocated that last point yet, because threat hasn't even been close (with 2/3 Crusade I was still pulling aggro off of the DK tank during XT-002 attempts, I actually had to Salv myself or hold back on most pulls - in his defense, he was having lag and framerate problems). I figure I may leave it unallocated until for another day or so to see whether the 2nd point of SA would come in useful on any of the other bosses, but it seems unlikely.


This is pretty much the same experience I had, and I think it particularly necessary to note the threat part. I took the more permanent leap into speccing 1/2 SA and 3/3 Crusade instead of doing the smarter thing and waiting, however I was certainly not dissapointed. I also decided in Pursuit of Justice for extra mobility...unfortunately I did not get much chance to determine if it is a worthwhile investment.
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