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1/2 SA? what about benediction?

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1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Voldiir » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:53 am

I've been reading different math breakdowns regarding our mana income with or without SA, or 1/2 vs 2/2 in conjuction with perma DP. But I also notice that a lot of people are choosing to take Heart of the Crusader in Ret (I've seen a lot of people actually getting 2/2 imp judge just because it seems like they are avoiding bene like the plague). I'm wondering what the difference is going to be if we get 4/5 bene in conjunction with other efficiency talents.

In it's current form, Guarded by the Light reduces the mana cost of HS and ShoR (AS too, but I'm not counting that) by 30% and we are trading that for the perma DP. Now those are pretty cheap spells as it is and it probably won't make that much of a difference, but I'm not sure if people have been taking that extra mana spent per rotation into consideration.

However an extra 8% cost reduction in.. well... every spell we cast, I would think, is not insignificant, esspecially since we have to blow points to get crusade anyways. And any ret pally in your raid IS going to have Heart of the Crusader and Imp BoM anyways... so what else is there to put points in aside from more efficiency via Bene?

I've rambled a bit... But I guess what I'm interested in is the mana breakdown for having 1/2 SA vs 2/2 SA with or without bene in both raid, and heroic / 10 man settings, considering I haven't been on the PTR to test. Will it make a difference? Will tanks who exclusively tank 10 and 5 mans require 2/2 SA even with bene, BoSanc, and perma DP? Has anyone thought about the Glyph of ShoR? Or do all these things make such little difference that you can basically ignore efficiency and still be fine on mana even in 5 mans?
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Torquemada » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:37 am

First off, the reduction in the mana cost is not going away. It has been removed from the talents and baked into the spells, just as the bonus to ShoR was baked into the standard spell, and as was done with the bonus 30% threat that was taken from Improved RF and baked into the spell when 3.0 rolled around. So don't worry about having a more expensive rotation. That isn't going to happen.

Second, with the changes to talents, if you're tanking you're going to have at bare minimum BoSanc and Divine Plea up all the time. With those plus 1/2 SA you should really have more than enough mana, especially on on bosses. If not, then 2/2 SA will work much better for you than multiple points in Benediction. It's not that Benediction has no benefit, it's more that the other talents avalable are SO MUCH BETTER. The reason that I spec for Heart of the Crusader is that I like having extra crit for myself and the raid, and we don't have a regular Ret Pally. I'm currently specced for 1 point in Bene because I'm too cheap to pay to respec, but otherwise I'd put it in 2/2 Imp. Judgements for faster judgements on trash. If you have a Ret Pally by all means put your extra points in Benediction if you're going for PoJ or Crusade or whatever.

Long story short with DP, 1/2 SA and BoSanc you'll have more than enough mana to spend your talent points on Improved LoH or Crusade or whatever you decide. Benediction is not an optimal talent as you don't really need it.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby jere » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:28 pm

Torquemada wrote:First off, the reduction in the mana cost is not going away. It has been removed from the talents and baked into the spells, just as the bonus to ShoR was baked into the standard spell, and as was done with the bonus 30% threat that was taken from Improved RF and baked into the spell when 3.0 rolled around. So don't worry about having a more expensive rotation. That isn't going to happen.


Can you provide a source on that? I am pretty sure the mana cost reductions are not there last time I logged on the PTR, but I could always check later. The 30% damage increase got rolled over, but the mana reduction got replaced with 100% divine plea as far as I can tell.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Torquemada » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:32 pm

I stand corrected. Sorry, long day of doing people's taxes. I hate retirees and all their damn paperwork.

Correction: Even with only 1/2 SA, Benediction isn't necessary, since DP will stay up 100% of the time as long as you're HITTING SOMETHING. If you end up for some reason requiring 2/2 SA, then I suggest not speccing 3/3 Crusade. I'm going to try full Crusade and see if I miss 2/2 SA. I don't expect to.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Venoseth » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:17 pm

Here's something I don't understand:

Why do we always include Sanc? I'm most 25-man raids you can usually assume you'll be able to sanc yourself, but doing 5 mans, or even 10-mans I'm often the only Paladin.

I don't know about you guys but BoK > BoSanc in just about every important situation (for example, in 5-mans, where I'm mana starved, I use Sanc for most trash and BoK for the bosses.

Benediction isn't a bad talent, but it's had a bad rap for a long time. I expect the same to happen to Divinity. If you're 100% sure you'll always have a ret with 100% uptime on his HotC, then don't bother. Remember tho', that there are situations where you won't always be attacking the same mob, in which case, having that built-into your build would still provide at least a benefit to yourself. ^^

TL;DR - bene's worth getting 1 point in before 2/2 Imp. Judge for any serious tankadin IMO, and maybe worth 4/5 if you have a really reliable ret in situations where you're on the same mob. :D
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:40 pm

Because if you are taking enough damage that you feel like you need kings, then you'll get enough mana through healing. If you find yourself running low on mana, because damage intake isn't high enough, then trading kings for sanctuary won't get you killed either.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Torquemada » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:46 pm

For progression fights Kings is better, because you have more survivability.

Nothing but Sarth+3 is progression for my guild atm, so I usually find myself fighting to keep mana flowing and I use Sanc.

I'm at the point on trash that I find myself using Seal of Wisdom, and even on some bosses. I use macros for my rotation and I tend to have 969 fairly tight.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby jere » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:27 pm

Venoseth wrote:Here's something I don't understand:

Why do we always include Sanc? I'm most 25-man raids you can usually assume you'll be able to sanc yourself, but doing 5 mans, or even 10-mans I'm often the only Paladin.

I don't know about you guys but BoK > BoSanc in just about every important situation (for example, in 5-mans, where I'm mana starved, I use Sanc for most trash and BoK for the bosses.


Honestly, for 5 mans, 10 mans, and a lot of 25 man encounters, you are going to want BoSanc. If you need BoK for an encounter (patchwerk, sapph, sarth3d, etc.), then you won't need BoSanc anyways and worrying about if it is included is moot since you are gonna have full mana anyways.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby PsiVen » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:37 pm

I'm curious what bosses you could possibly need SoW on. I only run low on Loatheb, because he hits like a sissy.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Worldie » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:43 pm

The melee strenght of bosses in Ulduar is all around Malygos and higher. I don't see how you can possibly need 2/2 AND sanct when you got 10k incoming DPS.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Torquemada » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:49 pm

PsiVen wrote:I'm curious what bosses you could possibly need SoW on. I only run low on Loatheb, because he hits like a sissy.


Loatheb, Gluth(MTing or chow tanking), the trash leading up to Gothik, tanking the extra acolytes on Raz. Granted with Gluth I get a help from the devastates, and lately we're able to kill him after 1 or two max, but learning the fight I could not keep a full mana bar to save my life.

I also tend to have more problems when I go back and do Naxx10, admittedly.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby majiben » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:14 pm

Gothik trash: Pull more
Acolytes: you just need to hold them off healers.
Gluth: Can't comment, ans preferred the kiting job.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Elsie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:04 am

Loatheb, Gluth(MTing or chow tanking), the trash leading up to Gothik, tanking the extra acolytes on Raz. Granted with Gluth I get a help from the devastates, and lately we're able to kill him after 1 or two max, but learning the fight I could not keep a full mana bar to save my life.

Loatheb: Go AFK. More seriously, if you run a proper 96969 rotation and remove damage prevention shields now and then it's fine. I find it better to turn around or cast flash of light in the heal phase to be better supplimental mana if I care for it.

Gluth: MTing you don't need to run a heavy rotation or holy shield while you're waiting for debuffs to go away. A warrior would go rage starved if he tried to spam everything, too. As far as kiting... I never found a problem. In general, you can even take a few hits for mana, but SoW isn't bad here - but your seal is also insignifcant and near pointless for this, too.

Gothik Trash: I never had a problem, but we always aoe tank everything. If you're not aoe tanking, you don't need consecration. Replace it with exorcism.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Varmin » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:31 am

I just simply almost never consecrate on loatheb. Normally substitute divine plea in there when it's up, or skip the GCD/throw sacred shield on myself depending on how lazy the healers are. Since there is no threat on the fight, there is really no need to keep up consecrate. This lets you continue taking as little dmg as possible. Though I'm still missing a piece or 2 of my block set, I still wind up 23-25th on dmg taken most of the time.
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Re: 1/2 SA? what about benediction?

Postby Elsie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:20 am

I just simply almost never consecrate on loatheb. Normally substitute divine plea in there when it's up, or skip the GCD/throw sacred shield on myself depending on how lazy the healers are. Since there is no threat on the fight, there is really no need to keep up consecrate. This lets you continue taking as little dmg as possible. Though I'm still missing a piece or 2 of my block set, I still wind up 23-25th on dmg taken most of the time.

Consecration is also a lot less attractive once you have +50% crit.
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