Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby larathus » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:47 pm

I have heard many strategies by many Paladins and it seems that each individual says they are correct.

When raiding VOA, NAXX and hroic instances etc ,what seals and what judgements do you use? I tend to use Seal of Wisdom in heroics especially when I am running with competent DPS as I am not getting hit enough to recover mana with Sanctuary. In raids I will use Sanctuary of course. Iusually tend to use Judgement of Light in all battles.

Ideas? Recommends?

Also if you hve time to look at my Armory - I am a bit over-capped in Def and at this level as I am raiding more, should I be stacking more parry & stam on my gems and enchants?

Thanks for the time and information.
larathus
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Dorvan » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:53 pm

I currently use SoV always...if I have to manage my mana, I do so by consecrating less often or by not doing much in general after about 15 seconds. In general though, I haven't really run into many mana problems. Also, make sure you're using Divine Plea.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby toothdecaykills » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:35 pm

In a 25 man raid, I tend to use either Judgment of Wisdom or Judgment of Justice...you might think that weird but I'll tell you why in a moment.

Firstly, Judgment of Light I almost ALWAYS reserved for my Retribution Paladins. They scale so much better than both Holy and us and thus are the best choices for the raid. Remember, JoL no longer causes threat like it used to, so there is no fear of Retribution pulling.

My Holy Paladin tends to use Judgment of Wisdom, which covers the last of the raid useful Judgments.

Unless this has been fixed and I simply hadn't noticed, I use Judgment of Justice because Judgments of the Just can easily fall off if another Paladin casts the same Judgment, effectively refreshing it. Since the debuff is tied to the Judgment itself, there is rarely any fear that another Paladin would overwrite it because you're using such a worthless PvE debuff.

In the end, make the choice on what to Judge based entirely on the raid or group composition. Light is better for Ret, but yours tends to scale decently as well. And always be mindful of what the other Paladins are doing, if there are any.

When it comes to Seals, it looks like you have a good grasp of what to use. Seal of Vengeance is the safest threat Seal to use, even if it is no longer the highest threat. Seal of Wisdom is a fantastic tool for when you need mana, but you'll probably see less of this need in 3.1 with Guarded by the Light and Divine Plea.
toothdecaykills
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Salamandra » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:15 pm

As far as I'm aware, Judgement of the Just is an invisible debuff that isn't tied to the regular judgement debuff. Not sure though.
Image
User avatar
Salamandra
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 5:45 pm

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Nich » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:22 pm

Anecdotal evidence:

If both ret pallies in our raids judge wisdom, only one JoW debuff appears on the mob.
If a ret and holy pally both judge light, only one JoL debuff appears on the mob.

If I judge light or wisdom and it's already on the boss, a second debuff icon appears.

It'd be nice to know at a glance if thunderjudge is active, but I guess that's a problem we share with DKs and IT.


(I haven't had a chance to try it out yet in a raid, but the new version of pitbull - 4 - highlights your own buffs and debuffs with a different colour and (optionally) different size icon. I'm aware that other unit frames do this too - possibly xperl? So it should be easy enough to see which is your judgement and which belongs to another pally when they're doubled up.)
User avatar
Nich
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:09 pm
Location: au.Blackrock

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby marsbubble » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:15 pm

i notice my judges being overridden even with JotJ, so I let ret do light and I do wisdom. I wouldn't count on a holy pally to keep wisdom up 100% because its only 1/min they really need to judge.
marsbubble
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:18 am

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Dokidoki » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:45 am

When raiding VOA, NAXX and hroic instances etc ,what seals and what judgements do you use? I tend to use Seal of Wisdom in heroics especially when I am running with competent DPS as I am not getting hit enough to recover mana with Sanctuary.


The standard for most people on this forum is to use Seal of Vengeance/corruption for all tanking situations. Even if you were reckless enough to use seal of blood/martyr as far as I understand it wouldn't be higher threat or damage anyway.

By the comment on sanc Im assuming you're questioning what blessing to use as well. If you have to choose one for a heroic I prefer sanc for mana over kings but kings is more helpful from a survival standpoint. Many argue that you dont need sanc even for a 5 man and that if you are having mana problems then just "pull more". However some of the bosses hit like pansies and without sanc I found myself going oom quick without it.

In raids I will use Sanctuary of course. Iusually tend to use Judgement of Light in all battles.


If you have to choose one buff, you want kings over sanctuary in raids. The damage you take is so high typically that you will be getting enough mana from spiritual attunement alone that you dont need the mana from sanc. Judgment of light is nice because you used to get the threat from the entire raid, however I believe now you only get your personal threat, which is still a boon.

Also if you hve time to look at my Armory - I am a bit over-capped in Def and at this level as I am raiding more, should I be stacking more parry & stam on my gems and enchants?


As majiben will chew your ass out for saying, there is no defense cap only a minimum. Just because you are crit immune does not mean defense doesn't do anything else. Defense increases 3 types of avoidance (miss, dodge, parry) and block rating. In terms of getting to a point where you push unmitigated hits off the table nothing is really better.

Parry gives you the least amount of returns of avoidance per rating out of any stat. There is never a reason to gem for parry, even with diminishing returns. It is a terrible idea. Just don't do it.

Most tanks do tend to gem for stamina, so I suppose you could replace your defense surplus gems with stamina. Stamina tends to get too much credit imo.

Also in terms of armory it helps if you specify your toon name and realm or provide a link. Im assuming you are the only 80 paladin named after your maintankadin profile.

Heres some things I'd suggest for changing.
-change your meta to http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380
-change your expertise and hit gem to something useful in terms of mitigation like avoidance or stamina
-change your parry gems to dodge, stam, def, strength or some combination of any of those.
-your spec is somewhat flawed, I highly recommend reading viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21932. It's an faq that explains some things and gives some basic specs that are a bit better than yours. I also suggest looking for a thread about rotations or just search 969.
-reckoning is bad you're better off putting those points into divine guardian or crit or Pursuit of justice
Image
User avatar
Dokidoki
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:48 am

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Maat » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:59 am

In heroics I generally use Seal of Righteousness, swap to Seal if Wisdom if I need a quick burst of mp when Plea is on cooldown. Bosses I'll switch to Corruption or whatever you pasty Alliance paladins call the equivalent. Though,I'm not really a proponent of "no mp = pull more" ideology - an OOM healer takes longer to regen mp than an OOM prot paladin.

In raids I'll just seal Corruption full-time, mobs generally don't die in the blink of an eye.

Typically I'll just judge Wisdom unless I'm the only paladin there on a certain boss, where I'll use LIght (eg Sapphiron, Malygos, Loken)
User avatar
Maat
 
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:48 am

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Petrus » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:20 am

I use Vengeance almost all the time in raids. Seal of Wisdom in heroics because I'm lazy and want to keep my mana up. Righteousness when addtanking on Sarth+3D because I'm often only hitting the stupid flame adds once and they'll die before long, so the stacking DoTs of Vengeance don't do much because I often don't get past one or two stacks on something before I'm running off in the other direction to grab a new mob.
User avatar
Petrus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:45 am
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby toothdecaykills » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:08 am

Dokidoki wrote:The standard for most people on this forum is to use Seal of Vengeance/corruption for all tanking situations. Even if you were reckless enough to use seal of blood/martyr as far as I understand it wouldn't be higher threat or damage anyway.


Theckd's MATLAB TPS analysis thread has shown very compelling data in regards to Seal of Blood. Remember, this is just analysis, so he isn't exactly telling you to use it, he's simply presenting the data. And the data shows that Seal of Blood is higher DPS/TPS in 3.1. You can find some of the information in this post.

Dokidoki wrote:Judgment of light is nice because you used to get the threat from the entire raid, however I believe now you only get your personal threat, which is still a boon.


Judgment of Light from a Retribution Paladin will scale higher than yours ever will (assuming equal gear levels), so it would actually be better for the raid overall to use another Judgment if you're running with a Retribution Paladin.

Dokidoki wrote:Heres some things I'd suggest for changing.
-change your meta to http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41380
-change your expertise and hit gem to something useful in terms of mitigation like avoidance or stamina
-change your parry gems to dodge, stam, def, strength or some combination of any of those.
-your spec is somewhat flawed, I highly recommend reading http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =4&t=21932. It's an faq that explains some things and gives some basic specs that are a bit better than yours. I also suggest looking for a thread about rotations or just search 969.
-reckoning is bad you're better off putting those points into divine guardian or crit or Pursuit of justice


He has great points above, and I'll just go to each and add more information or resources.

1. Agreed, nothing more to say about this one.
2. Hit is your second highest TPS stat. Only remove it if you're not afraid to lose that threat. Expertise isn't as useful, particularly given passive racials, talents, and the SoV glyph. You could easily reach the soft cap without ever needing to prioritize this stat.
3. Never gem for Parry. Ever. ;)
4. Follow the spec suggestions there, and the basic FAQ. If all of that stuff seems like things you already know, you can follow the Advanced 3.1 FAQ right here. This FAQ will give you all the information you'll need about the upcoming patch as well as what your rotation should be (969).
5. Reckoning is very bad. It does very little for SoV, and melee strikes are not a significant portion of threat. Spend these points elsewhere asap ;)
toothdecaykills
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby toothdecaykills » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:09 am

Petrus wrote:I use Vengeance almost all the time in raids. Seal of Wisdom in heroics because I'm lazy and want to keep my mana up. Righteousness when addtanking on Sarth+3D because I'm often only hitting the stupid flame adds once and they'll die before long, so the stacking DoTs of Vengeance don't do much because I often don't get past one or two stacks on something before I'm running off in the other direction to grab a new mob.


Seal of Righteousness isn't doing damage to the mob when you run away, Seal of Vengeance does. For 15 seconds after ;)
toothdecaykills
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby larathus » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:58 pm

Whoops! I guess I did forget to post a link to the armory DOH for me! I apologize for that.

My armory link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Larathus

So is it really that important to meet gem bonuses? The gems I am using usually include parry and not dodge. Will need to relook at this as well as the enchants I have now. I did change my Meta gem as recommended so if you want to retake a look I would appreciate any feedback. I am working very very slowly on the exalted Hodir shoulder enchant so prob in 2 week I will have it.

As for rotation I do not use the 969 macro and far prefer to manually do it. I never seem to have a problem withlosing aggro in th few raids I have been on as MT or OT so probably will continue to do so.

What about stamina? With the gem changes (I need to play with this more ) I just broke 27k unbuffed. About right for the gear I have now and what should I be shooting for? 30k?
larathus
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Dalithe » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:14 am

I use Wisdom for soloing.

For everything else I use Corruption.
If I'm OT and I happen to get low on mana I switch to Wisdom for a bit and switch back again when I have enough mana.

I find that I rarely run out of mana, doesn't matter if it's instances or MT/OT...there's always mana. If Divine Plea falls off and I need a quick boost I got the BE racial and that's all I need to make a pull.

I tried using Righteousness, but as soon as my Hammer goes flyin' out on a Deflection then it's back with Corruption, I hate havin' misses/parry's/deflections.

/r
Dal
Dalithe
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:30 am

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby æ » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:17 pm

Lots of judgeing in this thread. Why can't you all just get along. :cry:
10 SIN
20 GOTO HELL
User avatar
æ
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:02 pm
Location: Santa Barbara

Re: Seals and judgements while raiding and instances

Postby Arigise » Fri May 01, 2009 9:01 am

Has anyone heard/read anything definitive on whether our Judgments of the Just can be overwritten now?
Image
User avatar
Arigise
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:57 am

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest