Responsiveness and Alertness

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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Kracus » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:17 am

Eh just to throw in my 2 cents and pile on.

For the adds on KT, it isn't that bad, anyone is going to be in range of your RD even if the mob isn't in your range. Once taunted an AS or Excor will drag them the rest of the way. The other thing I do is sit in the back of the room, not on one side. This way I notice both of them right away and they are generally in my range. Maybe even leave the center of the room for yourself or work out a path to run up and grab them.

Sarth, I'm generally the Drake tank, I don't do adds until drakes are dead. I don't switch out any gear. If I hit a mob, regardless of what I use, it is glued to me. I drop my consecration on the healers and if most people are grouped up at this point, then you don't have to run around too much or at least the healers. I haven't done whelp adds but I'd put my consecration on the healers, intercept them and any that get by me, taunt or save my AS for those.

For me, I'm a tad anal as is so I'm pretty alert. I might slip up from time to time cause I'm focused on something that I'm trying to improve for that attempt and push out what I need to notice next, like the timer on the next drake. But for drake tanking I had to watch, void zones, waves, threat meter, HP for CDs, positioning of the drake so that melee wouldn't get hit nor anyone else by the breath, timers for drakes, occasionally (if I could see them) other tanks HP and healers and someone to salv if I have to. Very taxing and I just had to get use to it but it is generally what I've been doing anyway cause in general, tanking most other bosses is quite boring.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:56 am

This may be more of a comment on our raid makeup than anything, but I found that I should simply ignore adds that got in the clusterfuck that was the drake. They tended to die very quickly from incidental AOE anyway. Now, granted, only a handful usually got through on any given attempt; if you're looking at four or five adds in there at once you might have a problem.

I love that holy pally idea, and I'll suggest it next time.

EDIT: Oh, and since we had another pally on the drake, he usually got aggro on it pretty fast anyway.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Petrus » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:28 am

On Sartharion, I am the addtank. If mobs are close enough to me, I will ShoR them or if there are multiples I will HotR them rather than taunt them to pick them up. That way, I don't have to blow my taunt on mobs in melee range and have it unavailable for mobs that spawn far away.

If a single add spawns far off, I'll just get in range of it, taunt it with Hand of Reckoning, and be sure to judge it as it gets in range before moving to the next target. If an add spawns near me while I'm moving but not quite in melee range, I'll probably try to judge it to grab aggro.

I tend to save RD for taunting off of people. Avenger's Shield is almost always up - I use it mostly for the whelp spawn. It hits three whelps and then I select a different whelp and hit Hammer, which usually picks up all 6 that spawn. If it doesn't, I will probably only have one or two to taunt off of someone and that simplifies things. Once I know I have them all (usually after standing in one place with them and with a consecration ticking under them for a couple seconds), I'll move on top of the drake that's up and we'll AoE the whelps/flame adds down quickly.

It's all about awareness of where the flame adds are spawning and where you are when important things happen (i.e. whelp spawn, portal open, flame wall).

As for KT, I've gotten a lot better at paying attention to where void zones spawn and where adds spawn. Taunts are so nice for add pickup when they're far away.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Maverick13 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:40 am

dont know if i misunderstood

but if you're tanking both adds in KT 10 man and one spawns on top of you - You're stood in the wrong position.

as plenty of people have said here we have 4 mechanics for picking up the adds 2 taunts AS and Exorcism

all are ranged stand in the middle of the two spawn points at 40% exorcism 1 AS 2nd if its about to hit that healer taunt if not conc when it gets to you and they wont leave you :D
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Amaranthea » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:26 pm

Lots of specific advice in this thread, but as far as trying to improve your general reaction time and awareness goes:

Go spec holy or ret and PVP. If you're holy, make your goal to heal BGs without ever dying (so you have to pay attention to things like maintaining distance, people switching on to you etc). Pick the best geared DPS (or the first DPS who saves you from attackers) and follow them around. If you're ret, protect your healer while smashing stuff.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby arthimas » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:22 am

Amaranthea wrote:Lots of specific advice in this thread, but as far as trying to improve your general reaction time and awareness goes:

Go spec holy or ret and PVP. If you're holy, make your goal to heal BGs without ever dying (so you have to pay attention to things like maintaining distance, people switching on to you etc). Pick the best geared DPS (or the first DPS who saves you from attackers) and follow them around. If you're ret, protect your healer while smashing stuff.

I've been surprised at how many people told me that PvP would improve my reaction time, I also took about a month and a half hiatus from gameplay due to that I think i've just been a tad outta practice, though im playing my pally more now (levelling a ret alt) and running thru raids and practicing holding and fetching multiple mobs.

I'm just going to be play more diligently work harder on getting adjusted to the add tanking.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby theothersteve7 » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:48 am

I second PVPing. At the least, it gets you easy practice of fast-paced situations where you need to change targets quickly, with the added bonus of not having 24 people's time and repair bills depending on you.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Eaglestrike » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:44 am

Responsiveness and reaction time is half inherent and half experience. A looooot of being a good tank has to do with you being comfortable. Knowing your UI, knowing your keybinds, being used to moving your character, trusting you will get those heals, etc. Most of that is picked up just from repetition, from doing things over and over, so experience. Inherently...there are people that are a bit "obsessive" about how they deal with games/hobbies and there are those who just don't. And there's also the smart people and the not, heh. Smart + Obsessive = you'll perform well.

As for whelp/add tanking on Sarth3D...I think a paladin may be the best for it really. Though it's far safer for my guild since we added a 4th tank and have 2 tanks on adds. Everything goes smoother that way. For a paladin we have an 8s AOE ability we can just lay under a healer and then we can run off, we have an AOE taunt, a single target taunt, Avenger's shield for 3 mobs, Hammer for 3 mobs (excellent bounce on the Hammer too) and such so that I think we have the most to offer really. I can however see an unholy DK doing well, with DnD + Unholy Blight for mostly passive AOE threat, but I'm not sure the range on pestilence/blood boil is too impressive to be an on-demand AOE. I've done well picking up whelps going Hammer/re-target AS, that's 6 mobs in 1.5s I just picked up, with consecrate on the ground and righteous defense on whichever healer has the other few whelps. But like I said above, it takes you being comfortable with your toon to be able to pull off doing all that stuff at once during the OS3 encounter.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Zakkarai » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:58 am

Paladins actually have a decent arsenal of ranged threat/taunt/fixate effects that you can use to maximum effect. In order of usefulness:

Avenger's Shied: High damage/threat, will almost certainly peel a freshly spawned target off and give you enough of a lead that unless the DPS are really overzealous, it'll get into range for more conventional threat building activities before the possibility of it changing aggro can arise.

Exorcism (situational for now): Similar to Avenger's Shield, Exorcism will do enough damage in general that the target will focus on you long enough to get a more reasonable threat lead. Presently its undead/demon-only target restriction means that it's only really useful in Naxxramas, but this will change in 3.1 and is something you should most definitely pay attention to.

Hand of Reckoning: The fixate effect of this ability makes it a useful ranged pulling tool, though the fact that it wears off in time means that you need to accurately gauge range before you decide to use it. This is why it gets a slightly lower priority than Avenger's Shield and Exorcism. You only really have to worry about Hand of Reckoning not bringing the target into range before its fixate ends if the target is at maximum spell range and/or you are forced to move away from the target before you can do any conventional threat-building.

Righteous Defense: This is complicated, since it will peel three targets off, at random. The degree of situational awareness it demands makes it less desired than the predictable behavior of the first three tools; on the off chance that a target happens to be taunted by another tank in a pinch, and that tank is taking care of some other job simultaneously (i.e. a drake tank on Sartharion), you run the risk of biting off more than you can chew and/or disrupting positioning and facing. Use with caution.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Arianne » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:27 pm

A lot of being a tank is simply knowing the fight. You have to know where things are going to spawn and then position yourself appropriately. For KT, that means being in the middle so that you can grab BOTH adds. For Sarth, that means knowing where the whelps spawn and knowing where your healers are at all times (so that you can see if they have something on them). If there's something that happens and that means you have to do something, you have to anticipate that and be moving to intercept it before it happens. DBM and other mods have timers that will show you when things are scheduled to occur.

You need to know how much threat to generate and what the best tool is to do it. For example, on KT's adds, I know that an AS, or an exorcism and a judgement will keep the mob on me while I go around getting the next one. If I know that I need more threat than that, then I'll add a ShoR (I don't tend to use HotR because of the pesky range issue) and lay a cons in the area that I know the add will move through.

Aside from fight mechanics, you need to set up your UI. You need to know the entire raid's health. You need to know who has aggro on something. You need to be able to hit your important threat keys (AS, ShoR, HotR, Judgement, Exorcism, consecration) and your taunts while running around. You need to know how to strafe. You need to know how to camera control (and have your camera appropriately zoomed out). ... ntrol.html
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Conaan! » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:01 am

Aside from fight mechanics, you need to set up your UI. You need to know the entire raid's health

you dont need that at all, just who has aggro, and even then, thats not needed

a minimalistic ui will allow you to see everything, personally i use CaithUI, but you can go and grab bartender/pitbull/grid and make great use of it
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Dazhbog » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:48 am

Just a quick note, and I apologize if I missed a previous reference; I did a word search and came up dry:

Sense Undead helped me loads in quick pickup of the KT bug adds; they "spawn" and sit a second, while still showing up on your minimap.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby Mortehl » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:35 am

The one most important rule for any tank in a busy fight is preparation as has been mentioned.

If you can answer these questions, you know you're in good shape:

1) WHEN is the bad thing going to happen?
2) WHO is the bad thing going to happen to?
3) WHERE is the bad thing happening?

For example: Sartharion 3D. Your job is hypothetically to gather whelps and adds.

~ Whelps actually spawn approximately 30 seconds after Tenebron opens his portal.
~ Whelps actually spawn about 5 yards away from where the portal physically is to the far side of the portal from the entrance to the zone.
~ Whichever of your healers is assigned to raid healing is most likely going to pull initial aggro. Having him stand on you = free add gathering.

Those simple facts didn't instantly dawn on me, they came from practice and observation. We're all going to spectacularly fall on our asses in Ulduar next week (or the week after), but the difference between a good tank and a bad one is how well that person observers what is happening and how it happens. Use your raid to your advantage (ala the raid healing example above), try to make careful observations of positioning (like the actual spawn point of the whelps for example) and you will be fine. Don't let yourself feel like you suck, but make sure that you are always learning something from the encounter and you're mastering all the who, what, where, when, and hows of the fight.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby cordelia » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:41 pm

I think responses in this thread come down to two types of answers:

(1) How to make the best of what awareness/response time you have.


(2) How to increase awareness/response time.

Many of the suggestions such as stream-lining your UI, preparing for the fight, knowing which tools you have at your disposal all go towards (1). How to make the best of your current awareness.

Many of the PvP suggestions are directed towards (2). How to increase your awareness and response-time. Better arena players have great response-time and awareness - they know what everyone is doing at all times, so that they can execute the appropriate response. I'm sure there are also exercises that can increase awareness and response-time. I wonder whether those exercises would transfer over into WoW.
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Re: Responsiveness and Alertness

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:36 am

I did Halls of Lightning when I was a fresh 80 to get the Seal of the Pantheon, and my healer was a level 78 tree. We one-shotted Loken. He had some level 70 PVP gear on and I think a PVP title.

I wait to judge someone in PVP gear, now.

The big thing I'm getting out of it is target switching. I've unbound tab targeting, and if there's a particularly bad cluster I use target of target.

A quick comment on whelps for Sarth - our holy priest usually picks up aggro when they spawn, and he's healing the Sarth tank. He fades before they get to him, and that leaves the whelps flying across the entire fight zone... quite easy to pick up. Personally I usually have more trouble with the flame spawns during the second drake.
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