Value of Agility for a Paladin Tank

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Value of Agility for a Paladin Tank

Postby Demiblade » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:24 pm

1. Agility gives dodge, which contributes towards 102.4%, allowing you to swap out more pieces of avoidance trinkets/slots for more pure stamina/block value/threat/pvp trinkets.
2. Agility adds 2 armor per point, making your effective health higher.
3. Agility scales with kings, which you will always have even if you are soloing/pvping/5man.
4. Agility gives melee crit % which is small yet some contribution to threat.

On pre-TBC items, item point value of both stamina and agility is 1.0. On post-TBC items, stamina is 0.667 while agility remains at 1.0. As a result, combined with the availability of gem sockets, more tanks seem to be stacking stamina as much as they can.

I am not thinking about swapping out our +12 stm gems for +8 agility ones. But there are some realistic alternatives we face in many gear/enchant choices. Lore's opinion of "right now in 2.1, it's impossible for us to try to match a warrior's HP (particularly a tauren's), why not focus on stats that will make us better in the areas we're good at (AoE, burst threat, etc)" makes me start think about this whole agility itemization.

Here are some choices we can make. Some are truely more accessible (read earlier upgrades) than their non-agility counterparts.

- How does Necklace of the Juggernaut compare to Barbed Choker, especially if you are just a few 0.xx% away from swapping in the 2nd stamina trinket?

- How does Amber Bands of the Aggressor (the +22 str is a pity though) compare to Vambraces of Courage or Bracers of Green Fortress?

- How does Exceptional Stats compare to +150hp for chest enchant (since the int won't become a waste like on warriors)?

- How does Greater Agility compare to +Dodge for cloak enchant?

- How does Unstable Flask of the Beast compare to Flask of Fortification?

I have a prot pally friend who wears time warden leggings (leather kitted and gemmed to the sky) over curator pants because "raid leader sees just the HP bar anyways". I hope we all haven't become like that in our desperate attempts to push our HP up to the range of other tank types.

Let's discuss!
Last edited by Demiblade on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sharlos » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:58 pm

All i know is paladins get a slightly higher dodge per agility ratio than warrors.
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Postby Demiblade » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:10 pm

All i know is paladins get a slightly higher dodge per agility ratio than warrors.

You're right. Here's the numbers. Paladins get about whoppin 25% more dodge out of agility compared to warriors. (Damn, that must be what the devs were thinking why our holy shield should not be +75% like shield block.)

Agility needed for +1% Dodge chance at level 70
Druid - 14.70
Rogue - 20
Paladin - 25
Warrior - 33

Agility needed for +1% Melee Critical Hit chance at level 70
Paladin - 25
Druid - 25
Warrior - 33
Rogue - 40

Just because a tank equipment is "junk" for your warrior tanks, don't pass it up too quickly. Agi seems to favour both prot and ret pallies better compared to warriors.
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Postby Girard » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:14 am

Actually, warriors need 30pts/%dodge. So it's only a minor plus to us =p
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Postby sindorei » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:37 am

take cloak enchant for example:
+120AC about 0.33% physical dmg reduced
+12 dodge raiting = 0.636% dodge
+12 Agility = 0.48 % dodge with xtra 24 Armors

hence: +12 agi provide better overall stats for pally
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Postby amalah » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:27 am

don't you mean that 12 dodge is better? im not seeing how 24 armor makes up for the almost .2% dodge you lose out on.
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Postby Demiblade » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:40 am

12 agi becomes 13.2 with kings, means 0.528% dodge. So we are looking at difference of +26.4 armor (agi enchant) vs. +0.108% dodge (dodge enchant).

Again, armor vs. dodge is never an apple to apple comparism. Armor is 100% definite mitigation on physical damage with zero risk factor involved. Dodge % is still a probability.
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Postby amalah » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:01 am

But that 26.4 armor is realitave to the total amount of armor you have. As FAIK armor point for point gives less total mitigation the higher your armor value is. example if you have 500 armor, 50 points gives more benefit then if you have 5000 and add 50.

So i guess that what im saying is that at some point of high armor value won't the dodge enchant be better then the Agi?
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Postby Mithos » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:23 am

That's not strictly true, as far as I know, the RELATIVE change when adding AC stays the same whenever you add AC, i.e.;

You have 10000 AC, you add 500, your lifespan increases by x seconds;
You have 20000 AC, you add 500, your lifespan increases by x seconds.

Where x is the same in both cases. So the small amount of AC from the agi chant gives the same lifespan increase no matter how much you already have. Now dodge gives more dodge, so its 0.1% ish dodge vs 26.4 AC. I'm now re-evaluating my cape enchant choice, and I farmed so many guardian stones for the damn dodge one ><.

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/ this website is full of tanking guides for warriors, but the stuff on general mechanics and stuff like this (AC vs lifespan at diff levels) is ireespective of class. He actually asked for some people to submit paladin guides, and I e-mailed him a link to this forum, I might write one myself one day.
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Postby Demiblade » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:36 am

- Percentage of damage reduced by extra armor has diminishing (increasingly decreasing) values.
- But amount of time extra armor buys you to stay alive (assuming no incoming heals over constant incoming damage) has no diminishing returns.

Here is the original article. http://evilempireguild.org/guides/diminishing.php
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Postby Mithos » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:49 am

Thanks for the link, I'm still using I.E. 6 so I can't see the frame layout he's using (whatever its called, the websited fecked for me ;>)
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Postby eia » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:23 am

I don't really find the expected extended lifespan view that helpful for evaluating armor.
Considering the amount of incoming damage from bosses, I barely think it matters at all. It will(/would, if at 100% healing efficiency) in the end save healer mana perhaps, but... meh. Not enough.
That doesn't mean I deem armor worthless though, but I do value it based on the percentage of damage reduced, nothing else.
YMMV.
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Postby Eneroth » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:00 am

Hmm....

This thread is a great read, and has me thinking of dropping the armor enchant I have my cloak to add in the +Agi enchant on it. Also thinking of changing out some of my gems with the the 4 Agi & 6 Sta. This is also because at this point in time I am working hard on bringing up chances not to be crushed.
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Postby Mithos » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:03 am

Well the idea is you get your buffer high enough (avoidance/stamina), then you reduce the incoming damage in a raw form, by stacking AC and block value on top. That's the only way you can reduce the actual damage dealt from a hit. Raw mitigation does really conincide with lifespan, at least that's how I consider it.

In the end it doesn't matter much because the ONLY way to reduce incoming damage is AC and block value, and this has the effect of increasing your lifespan. So once your buffer is high enough (having the HP deficit returned to us somehow in the future will help us get this quicker) I guess AC and BV is the way to go.
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Re: Value of Agility for a Paladin Tank

Postby Ferrosis » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:08 am

Demiblade wrote:... Lore's opinion of "right now in 2.1, it's impossible for us to try to match a warrior's HP (particularly a tauren's), why not focus on stats that will make us better in the areas we're good at (AoE, burst threat, etc)" makes me start think about this whole agility itemization.

...


Lore, or anybody else, do you have a link to his post/thread?
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