3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zironic » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:42 am

Majiben wrote:Enough holy paladins for each tank.


Are you seriously, straight faced, going to tell me that you're currently willing to baby sit SS on other raid members and you'll continue to do that in 3.1?
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:48 am

On challenging content, yes. Also it's selfish to assume you will always be getting a holy paladin's SS when you have one yourself and the number of engaged tanks is greater than the number of paladin healers.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:55 pm

Knaughty wrote:Go model 800 armour vs 50 stam for a couple of your gear-sets?

In addition to what Majiben pointed out, armor isn't as universally useful as stamina. The places where I would currently love an extra 50 stam are all magic damage fights, where armor is of less use.

Also, the 800 armor is mutually exclusive with the 2% threat enchant, which is annoying. It just feels wrong that by switching to any other profession, I get roughly 50 stam and get to keep my glove enchant.

I'll probably still end up using the engineering enchant, since I have trouble believing threat will be an issue with a crusade spec anyway. But it still feels like Engi is being treated as a "second-class" profession in PvE due to it's strength PvP and "fun" factor.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:05 pm

Zironic wrote:
toothdecaykills wrote:A talent that only sometimes gives you the full benefit of the points spent (and will often times give you no benefit) seems a lot less useful than say Sacred Shield absorbing more damage all the time.

This sentence applies to AD aswell.

Yes it does. You can see when AD helps (or analyze an addon). I am not yet convinced that when Divinity is being fully used, it will save you. I have seen AD work wonders (especially with Divine Protection), but I have a hard time seeing how a stat that healers do not see much value in would help when compared to stronger threat or a stronger Sacred Shield.

Not to mention, the DG talent is useful if you lack a Holydin for each tank in your raid since you can very easily babysit this on another.

Zironic wrote:Assuming all things are equal, would you take a healer that has enchanted his gear with spellpower over one who has no enchants, yes/no?
If you just said yes, then that means you think divinity is useful.


I don't see how this has any bearing, I thought this discussion was about Divinity's usefulness compared to the given alternatives. Sure, Divinity is useful, just like Reckoning is useful. They both provide an observable benefit, but alternatives exist with better benefits.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zironic » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:19 pm

toothdecaykills wrote:I don't see how this has any bearing, I thought this discussion was about Divinity's usefulness compared to the given alternatives. Sure, Divinity is useful, just like Reckoning is useful. They both provide an observable benefit, but alternatives exist with better benefits.

The point is that knaughty is saying it's literally useless.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:32 pm

Zironic wrote:
toothdecaykills wrote:I don't see how this has any bearing, I thought this discussion was about Divinity's usefulness compared to the given alternatives. Sure, Divinity is useful, just like Reckoning is useful. They both provide an observable benefit, but alternatives exist with better benefits.

The point is that knaughty is saying it's literally useless.


I value his opinion, if only because he's seen fit to write an in depth FAQ for 3.1 and appears genuinely interested in this discussion.

I'd like to think should he mentions these talents in more depth, he'll make sure to explain the merits of each (along with the customary Knaughty biased suggestions ;)). Even so, I'm all for being proven wrong once we have more hands-on time with the patch.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:55 pm

theckhd wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Go model 800 armour vs 50 stam for a couple of your gear-sets?

In addition to what Majiben pointed out, armor isn't as universally useful as stamina. The places where I would currently love an extra 50 stam are all magic damage fights, where armor is of less use.

Of course it isn't as useful as stamina against magic :) But how does it compare if you're being kicked in the face over and over?

Anyway, I ran the numbers:

Plugged my stats into: http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=Calculator

Base EH = 111,873.43 Used 26k armour and 38k health. Close enough.

68 stamina is 856 health, inc Kings

Stamina chant/profession EH = 114,279.55

Engineering gives nett 800 armour, not 560. We're already giving "Profession X" 18 stamina. You can't stack 18 stamina with 240 armour. You only miss out on one enchant, not both. For this calc, I used 18 stam.

Engineering EH = 113,972.61

68 Stamina adds 2.4k EH

560 armor adds 2.1k EH

Given that stamina is more generally useful, the glove tinker is worse under most circumstances. Better when you're taking a ton of small hits that are then blocked, as Engineers have 65.08% armour vs 64.42%. 50k base hit goes to 17,460 on the engineer vs 17,790 - 530 more damage is noticeable.

The original naive comparison of 50 stam / 800 armour:

Armor EH: 113972.61
50 stam EH: 113644.29

Under that comparison, the armour is actually 328 EH ahead, which is reasonable payback for it only working vs physical damage.

If the tinker was buffed from 800 to 1k, it would be 218 EH ahead.

Anyway, as it stands, pick one: 50k boss hit ends up 530 damage smaller after armour, or 856 more health, fully buffed.

Inspiration?

But wait, I hear you say, what if I'm being healed by a priest or resto shaman!?!

Stamina chant/profession EH = 131,072

Engineering EH = 131,553.29

Engineering wins, 69.75% armour vs 69.13%

Results

Engineering tinker wins for tanking 2+ targets, dual wielding targets, or if you have a +25% armour buff up (extremely likely if healed by Holy priest or Resto Shaman).

Stamina buffs wins vs magical damage or Big. Slow. Face. Stomping. if you don't have +25% armor

Overall, I'd rate that as competitive. Get the right healer, and the Tinker wins for physical damage. Vs Patchwerk or Prince, Tinker wins even with wrong healer. Crap for magic.

It's actually pretty well balanced, I'm surprised.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:00 pm

Interesting, when I plug the 800 armor into my spreadsheet, (which also includes our ~12 passive mitigation) with inspiration up it is actually less of an advantage than without. The difference on a 50k hit went from 347 without inspiration to 330 with inspiration. I'll have to verify my spreadsheet.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:26 pm

I'm just spouting the numbers I get out of the Tankspot calculator.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:07 pm

Jasari wrote:
Rhî wrote:trash is not our domain. Warriors and Ferals are charging into the mobgroups, using swipe and Shockwave/thunderclap wildly, while I'm still running into the pack with the rest of the melees, dropping down my consecration.

I got a kick out of this statement since Warrior and Ferals claim they're the ones doing nothing on trash while we're busy tanking everything with AS, Consecration and HotR.

Trash tanking amounts to: Whoever got in first wins. Warriors & bears have charge, AS has 30y range.

Where warriors now win that was a niche for us in TBC is "massive packs", eg: Spiderlings in Naxx. T'clap beats Consecrate, so if you and a warrior both go for a mass AE pack, warrior will tank 90% of it.

On normal trash, AS the pack, HotR ASAP, tank those three. Other tanks won't peel them.

If the warrior has a GCD or two before you fire off AS...
(1) No, you won't peel them
(2) Get off your fat ass and get up the front. You're a tank, not a wallflower.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:38 pm

Massive set of updates, all feedback up to this point now included (probably).

Just "User Interface" section to go.

WTB feedback on current front page.

Looking for suggestions for user interface section. Have some stuff written off-line, but lets get some ideas flowing on what should / shouldn't be there.

And I was going to say "ready for sticky now" but someone has already done it.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:27 pm

FYI: I am 99% sure that inspiration does not affect armor from enchants.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:31 am

Majiben wrote:FYI: I am 99% sure that inspiration does not affect armor from enchants.


BUGRIT!
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zironic » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:38 am

I have to question the logic behind:
Knaughty wrote:It is worth noting that Imp LoH is a powerful CD - over 20% physical mitigation. 11 min CD is painful, but vs big hits, it is almost as good as Shield Wall.

If you have a reliable Holy Paladin with Imp LoH (or a Ret who swings that way) the choice vanishes. Spec Crusade.

Why would the fact the holies and rets might use imp LoH affect if you should have it or not? It's not like you can only be affected by one LoH per combat or something. The more imp LoH the merrier I'd say(even if I won't go that spec I think).
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:07 am

I just read your spec section where you mention holy judging wisdom, ret juding light (obviously) and then prot most likely judging justice.
However, that causes JoW to have a downtime, seeing as holy will probably only judge when their haste buff runs out, rather than every cooldown.

I've thought about it and imo, the best option would be for both ret and holy to judge JoL, ok, that might give you a while of a weaker JoL being on the boss, but after a maximum of 8 seconds (no more T7(4) and holy judging right as ret judges) the more powerfull will be up again for about 50 seconds.
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