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3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:16 am

toothdecaykills wrote:This would mean mixilogy would provide an extra 650 hp, probably enough to throw it up with the other roughly 50 stam professions, even if it truly isn't stam.

Now if only they'd throw us engineers a bone... :/
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:19 am

Zironic wrote:
I can prove Divinity is useless very easily: We're the only tanking class who have it.

We're not, druids and dk's have it aswell.
No they don't. Druids have http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=33873 which would be for dps druids if they would take it all. DKs have http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=50371 whose effects are five times as powerful in addition to the self healing effects but again is a dps talent as far as the healing goes since they need to be in blood presence.

Zironic wrote:
Divinity is only useful if your current health is more than <size of boss hit> above zero (so the next hit won't kill you) but also more than <size of big heal> less than max health, so it isn't overheal. The big heals I receive seem to be about 15k. The big hits are also 15k. I have ~ 38k health.

HL noncrit is 10k(Although almost 50% critrate) and you'll have quite a few HoT's/Earthshield etc, 15k heals is hardly the norm in any tanking scenario.
I find it odd to say that 15k heals are not normal when HL crits for 15k about half the time.

Zironic wrote:Also your scenario is not correct. Divinity is useful if your current health is more then <size of boss hit>-<incoming healing before hit lands>. You're modeling two conflicting scenarios at the same time. In the first scenario the hit is before the heal thus guaranteeing that the 15k heal is NOT overheal, in the second scenario the heal lands before the hit making it rather irrelevant if you had enough hp to survive the hit to begin with aslong as you do have enough hp afterwards.

Thus the range where divinity is useful is everywhere between 0(non dead) and the point where you get overhealed(somewhere in the range between 25 and 38k based on your hp and the size of heals). This is also known as the range where you really really really want massive heals.
That's not true. You're assuming one heal. You're also assuming dipping. You're also assuming you have to be healed to full. You have to look at the chances of such a scenario occurring and the chances of divinity saving you. You have not shown that it will reduce the chances of death anymore than crusade will through shorter phases and kills and the greater damage absorption of SS through DG.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:32 am

I feel ya, ex-engineer myself. Went blacksmithing the first chance I had. The new 800 armour glove enchant is noteworthy, but there still remains precious little true benefit.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:38 am

theckhd wrote:
toothdecaykills wrote:This would mean mixilogy would provide an extra 650 hp, probably enough to throw it up with the other roughly 50 stam professions, even if it truly isn't stam.

Now if only they'd throw us engineers a bone... :/


Go model 800 armour vs 50 stam for a couple of your gear-sets?
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:48 am

It's not a free 800 armor though. At best it's 560 armor versus 50 stamina or 800 armor versus 68 stamina. Both 240 armor and 18 stamina armor kits are available for the same slot.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zironic » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:54 am

Majiben wrote:
Zironic wrote:
I can prove Divinity is useless very easily: We're the only tanking class who have it.

We're not, druids and dk's have it aswell.
No they don't. Druids have http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=33873 which would be for dps druids if they would take it all. DKs have http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=50371 whose effects are five times as powerful in addition to the self healing effects but again is a dps talent as far as the healing goes since they need to be in blood presence.

Actually I was refering to:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40896
And:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55233

It fits with the theme, we have a permanent and weaker version and they have a stronger version on CD.
Majiben wrote:
Zironic wrote:
Divinity is only useful if your current health is more than <size of boss hit> above zero (so the next hit won't kill you) but also more than <size of big heal> less than max health, so it isn't overheal. The big heals I receive seem to be about 15k. The big hits are also 15k. I have ~ 38k health.

HL noncrit is 10k(Although almost 50% critrate) and you'll have quite a few HoT's/Earthshield etc, 15k heals is hardly the norm in any tanking scenario.
I find it odd to say that 15k heals are not normal when HL crits for 15k about half the time.

It is foolish to assume incoming heals are crits.
Majiben wrote:
Zironic wrote:Also your scenario is not correct. Divinity is useful if your current health is more then <size of boss hit>-<incoming healing before hit lands>. You're modeling two conflicting scenarios at the same time. In the first scenario the hit is before the heal thus guaranteeing that the 15k heal is NOT overheal, in the second scenario the heal lands before the hit making it rather irrelevant if you had enough hp to survive the hit to begin with aslong as you do have enough hp afterwards.

Thus the range where divinity is useful is everywhere between 0(non dead) and the point where you get overhealed(somewhere in the range between 25 and 38k based on your hp and the size of heals). This is also known as the range where you really really really want massive heals.
That's not true. You're assuming one heal. You're also assuming dipping. You're also assuming you have to be healed to full. You have to look at the chances of such a scenario occurring and the chances of divinity saving you. You have not shown that it will reduce the chances of death anymore than crusade will through shorter phases and kills and the greater damage absorption of SS through DG.

I was merely demonstrating that it is USEFUL, not that it'll will routinely save your life.

The cases where it will save you is where you go from 100->death where you got healed for overkillamount*20, for example if you got overkilled by 5k, then you needed to be healed for 100k, which is an unreasonable amount, however if you were overkilled by say 500(not horribly uncommon) then you would only have had to receive 10k healing for divinity to have saved your life.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:20 am

Zironic wrote:
Majiben wrote: No they don't. Druids have http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=33873 which would be for dps druids if they would take it all. DKs have http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=50371 whose effects are five times as powerful in addition to the self healing effects but again is a dps talent as far as the healing goes since they need to be in blood presence.
Actually I was refering to:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40896
And:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55233

It fits with the theme, we have a permanent and weaker version and they have a stronger version on CD.
The druid one is tied to another ability, a self heal worth 3% of their hp per second. The glyph's main benefit is changing their personal heal to 3.6% of their maxium hp. additionally 20% more healing is 4 times as powerful as divinity and that is enough variation for healers to modulate their heals especially when the druid has essentially added a 1.6k hps HoT to themself.

The DK one is tied to their version of last stand and is 7 times more powerful. That's enough modulation for 3 healers to drop to 2 or even allow 1 to come close to covering the job of 2 with the use of some their CDs.
Zironic wrote:
Majiben wrote:
Zironic wrote:HL noncrit is 10k(Although almost 50% critrate) and you'll have quite a few HoT's/Earthshield etc, 15k heals is hardly the norm in any tanking scenario.
I find it odd to say that 15k heals are not normal when HL crits for 15k about half the time.
It is foolish to assume incoming heals are crits.[/qoute]With a 50% crit rate it is foolish to assume they always aren't. I never claimed I assumed they crit but you claimed that 15k heals were uncommon when they would make up roughly half the heals a holy paladin will be putting out.
Majiben wrote:
Zironic wrote:Also your scenario is not correct. Divinity is useful if your current health is more then <size of boss hit>-<incoming healing before hit lands>. You're modeling two conflicting scenarios at the same time. In the first scenario the hit is before the heal thus guaranteeing that the 15k heal is NOT overheal, in the second scenario the heal lands before the hit making it rather irrelevant if you had enough hp to survive the hit to begin with aslong as you do have enough hp afterwards.

Thus the range where divinity is useful is everywhere between 0(non dead) and the point where you get overhealed(somewhere in the range between 25 and 38k based on your hp and the size of heals). This is also known as the range where you really really really want massive heals.
That's not true. You're assuming one heal. You're also assuming dipping. You're also assuming you have to be healed to full. You have to look at the chances of such a scenario occurring and the chances of divinity saving you. You have not shown that it will reduce the chances of death anymore than crusade will through shorter phases and kills and the greater damage absorption of SS through DG.
I was merely demonstrating that it is USEFUL, not that it'll will routinely save your life.

The cases where it will save you is where you go from 100->death where you got healed for overkillamount*20, for example if you got overkilled by 5k, then you needed to be healed for 100k, which is an unreasonable amount, however if you were overkilled by say 500(not horribly uncommon) then you would only have had to receive 10k healing for divinity to have saved your life.
You have to do more than demonstrate that in some scenario somewhere that it could be useful. I could also create a situation where divinity kills you by taking you out of AD range. For that to be a reasonable counter I need to show how common it is. Until you start using the probability of divinity saving your life I can use my divinity leads to death scenario with impunity because we are arguing in terms of is it possible rather than is it likely and what are the actual odds.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Kihra » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:30 am

Zironic wrote:I was merely demonstrating that it is USEFUL, not that it'll will routinely save your life.


Yeah. I don't think anyone here is trying to say that Divinity is really good. It clearly isn't, but I also think it's pretty arrogant to dismiss it as utterly useless the way some people are doing here.

I mentioned Divinity originally just because I took issue with it being labeled as a bad way to spend those three floating points. I don't think any of the places you could put the three filler points in the lower Prot tiers are particularly interesting personally, but Divinity is certainly a better choice than Reckoning or Stoicism for a main tank.

I know of two different occasions when drake tanking on Sarth 3D 10-man where Divinity would have saved my life. Remember also that when Divinity does save your life, leaving you with a tiny sliver of health, you have a shot at getting off a Lay on Hands.

As far as I'm concerned, this talent is not completely useless if it even saves me once. Since I've encountered situations where it would have saved me, I'm going to put my points there. I think there will be more situations like drake tanking on 3D Sarth in Ulduar, where you're taking multiple moderate-sized hits and are subject to gaps in heals caused by healers having to move.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zironic » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:44 am

Majiben wrote:The druid one is tied to another ability, a self heal worth 3% of their hp per second. The glyph's main benefit is changing their personal heal to 3.6% of their maxium hp. additionally 20% more healing is 4 times as powerful as divinity and that is enough variation for healers to modulate their heals especially when the druid has essentially added a 1.6k hps HoT to themself.
The DK one is tied to their version of last stand and is 7 times more powerful. That's enough modulation for 3 healers to drop to 2 or even allow 1 to come close to covering the job of 2 with the use of some their CDs.

Obviously they're more powerful, they're cooldowns, are you going to argue that glyph of divine plea is useless next because shield wall is 20x more powerful?

Majiben wrote:You have to do more than demonstrate that in some scenario somewhere that it could be useful. I could also create a situation where divinity kills you by taking you out of AD range. For that to be a reasonable counter I need to show how common it is. Until you start using the probability of divinity saving your life I can use my divinity leads to death scenario with impunity because we are arguing in terms of is it possible rather than is it likely and what are the actual odds.

Things like AD and divinity can't be probability modeled, they can only be simulated.

However you can show that divinity can only kill you if you are between 24.5%-35% hp and get healed for 10.5-0% where 5% extra would push you above 35% while taking a hit of 35% of your hp. That is if you're at 24.5% hp you have to get healed for exactly 10.08%-10.5% for divinity to kill you.

And that divinity will save you if you get overkilled for less then healingbetween100%anddeath/20.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby toothdecaykills » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:17 am

Khira wrote:You also have to take into account Ardent Defender (which increases the effectiveness if Divinity when not leapfrogged).


As Majiben pointed out, Divinity could also remove you from Ardent Defender range and cause your death. Something to note as well, Divinity does not increase in effectiveness while in AD range. In fact, Divinity's only relation with AD is that heals in this state will land with the most efficiency with little chance of overheal. This is not increased effectiveness, that is simply you receiving the total benefit of the talent versus the often decreased efficiency when heals land any other time.

A talent that only sometimes gives you the full benefit of the points spent (and will often times give you no benefit) seems a lot less useful than say Sacred Shield absorbing more damage all the time.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:19 am

Zironic wrote:
Majiben wrote:The druid one is tied to another ability, a self heal worth 3% of their hp per second. The glyph's main benefit is changing their personal heal to 3.6% of their maxium hp. additionally 20% more healing is 4 times as powerful as divinity and that is enough variation for healers to modulate their heals especially when the druid has essentially added a 1.6k hps HoT to themself.
The DK one is tied to their version of last stand and is 7 times more powerful. That's enough modulation for 3 healers to drop to 2 or even allow 1 to come close to covering the job of 2 with the use of some their CDs.

Obviously they're more powerful, they're cooldowns, are you going to argue that glyph of divine plea is useless next because shield wall is 20x more powerful?
The point is they not the equivalent to divinity. People will use those abilities anyways, without the healing boosts. Those boosts are large enough to change healing styles for the duration of them. Divinity has none of those qualities.

Zironic wrote:
Majiben wrote:You have to do more than demonstrate that in some scenario somewhere that it could be useful. I could also create a situation where divinity kills you by taking you out of AD range. For that to be a reasonable counter I need to show how common it is. Until you start using the probability of divinity saving your life I can use my divinity leads to death scenario with impunity because we are arguing in terms of is it possible rather than is it likely and what are the actual odds.

Things like AD and divinity can't be probability modeled, they can only be simulated.

However you can show that divinity can only kill you if you are between 24.5%-35% hp and get healed for 10.5-0% where 5% extra would push you above 35% while taking a hit of 35% of your hp. That is if you're at 24.5% hp you have to get healed for exactly 10.08%-10.5% for divinity to kill you.

And that divinity will save you if you get overkilled for less then healingbetween100%anddeath/20.
You have to extend the range to 24% exclusive. And yes you can find the probabilities of it saving or killing you. You have to find the distribution of healing ranges, damage intake ranges, parry haste, for all ranges of healing and and damage you will face. You would have to use calculus and it's not a simple task due to the large amounts of information that needs to be handled but it is possible. You can model it.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:55 am

That sounds like a lot of IFs...
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zironic » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:13 am

toothdecaykills wrote:A talent that only sometimes gives you the full benefit of the points spent (and will often times give you no benefit) seems a lot less useful than say Sacred Shield absorbing more damage all the time.

This sentence applies to AD aswell.

The DG talent is only beneficial if you lack a holydin which I don't.
The point is they not the equivalent to divinity. People will use those abilities anyways, without the healing boosts. Those boosts are large enough to change healing styles for the duration of them. Divinity has none of those qualities.

Assuming all things are equal, would you take a healer that has enchanted his gear with spellpower over one who has no enchants, yes/no?

If you just said yes, then that means you think divinity is useful.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:15 am

Enough holy paladins for each tank.
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Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Kihra » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:20 am

toothdecaykills wrote:
Khira wrote:You also have to take into account Ardent Defender (which increases the effectiveness if Divinity when not leapfrogged).


As Majiben pointed out, Divinity could also remove you from Ardent Defender range and cause your death. Something to note as well, Divinity does not increase in effectiveness while in AD range. In fact, Divinity's only relation with AD is that heals in this state will land with the most efficiency with little chance of overheal. This is not increased effectiveness, that is simply you receiving the total benefit of the talent versus the often decreased efficiency when heals land any other time.

A talent that only sometimes gives you the full benefit of the points spent (and will often times give you no benefit) seems a lot less useful than say Sacred Shield absorbing more damage all the time.


Yeah I realized this statement was incorrect almost as soon as I typed it and removed it from my post, but you responded too quickly. :)
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