3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Meloree » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:45 am

The number that our rogues and fury warriors seem to live by is 81 seconds. If a fight is less than 81 seconds, a rogue exposes, if it's more than that, a warrior sunders. Obviously moot if our prot warrior is tanking it. Apparently that's the way the RDPS math works out, when one calculates personal dps lost to put it up/keep it up vs. time to get the debuff up, etc.

So, for example, Gormok gets sunders, Jormungars get exposes, Icehowl gets sunders. Vezax gets sunders and the Animus gets exposed. XT heart gets exposed, XT gets sunders. Steelbreaker gets sunders, because the ramping penalty can be taken while Stormcaller is still alive, even though the Steelbreaker phase is only about 60 seconds.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:07 am

That's true, we do have a rogue in our raid, I'll ask him if he's doing expose armor -- I know he doesn't do it often as an expose armor on a target being tanked on a warrior means the warrior wont be able to sunder/devastate as they will get an error message.

On a side note. If my expertise is sitting at 27, should I still glyph for SoC/V?
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Gamingdevil » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:38 pm

Klaudandus wrote:That's true, we do have a rogue in our raid, I'll ask him if he's doing expose armor -- I know he doesn't do it often as an expose armor on a target being tanked on a warrior means the warrior wont be able to sunder/devastate as they will get an error message.

On a side note. If my expertise is sitting at 27, should I still glyph for SoC/V?


Yes, you should. It's the highest TPS glyph even past the soft cap according to Theck.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Venoseth » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:20 am

Klaudandus wrote:On a side note. If my expertise is sitting at 27, should I still glyph for SoC/V?


Yes, very much so. According to the MATLAB thread that was referenced by Gamingdevil expertise is also 4x as effective as dodge at reducing worst-case-scenarios thanks to parry haste reduction.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby xstratax » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:12 am

Venoseth wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:On a side note. If my expertise is sitting at 27, should I still glyph for SoC/V?


Yes, very much so. According to the MATLAB thread that was referenced by Gamingdevil expertise is also 4x as effective as dodge at reducing worst-case-scenarios thanks to parry haste reduction.


According to TheckHD's own signature, which links to the Expertise calculation, Exp is 80% as good as dodge for worst-case, or are you talking about something else when you say its 4 times as good (i read 4x as 4 times, which means 400% where i come from...that could be where i misunderstand you)
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby jere » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:46 am

xstratax wrote:According to TheckHD's own signature, which links to the Expertise calculation, Exp is 80% as good as dodge for worst-case, or are you talking about something else when you say its 4 times as good (i read 4x as 4 times, which means 400% where i come from...that could be where i misunderstand you)


You should read the first post in the link in his signature (the one that says expertise is 80%):

* Expertise is about 73% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage (first link).
* Expertise is about 69% as effective as dodge rating for reducing the number of incoming attacks that connect (also first link).
* Expertise is actually 2x-4x better than dodge at reducing spike damage intake from boss melee attacks, with the added benefit that it preferentially reduces the largest spikes, thus smoothing out our spike damage by reducing the maximum spike size (second link).
* Each point of expertise rating also gives us about 1/3 of a point of STR.


I am assuming that is the most updated, but would need to read through the thread more to verify and don't have the time atm.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zothor » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:01 pm

Meloree wrote:The number that our rogues and fury warriors seem to live by is 81 seconds. If a fight is less than 81 seconds, a rogue exposes, if it's more than that, a warrior sunders. Obviously moot if our prot warrior is tanking it. Apparently that's the way the RDPS math works out, when one calculates personal dps lost to put it up/keep it up vs. time to get the debuff up, etc.

So, for example, Gormok gets sunders, Jormungars get exposes, Icehowl gets sunders. Vezax gets sunders and the Animus gets exposed. XT heart gets exposed, XT gets sunders. Steelbreaker gets sunders, because the ramping penalty can be taken while Stormcaller is still alive, even though the Steelbreaker phase is only about 60 seconds.


You wouldn't happen to know where this math came from, would you?
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Meloree » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:45 pm

Zothor wrote:
Meloree wrote:The number that our rogues and fury warriors seem to live by is 81 seconds. If a fight is less than 81 seconds, a rogue exposes, if it's more than that, a warrior sunders.


You wouldn't happen to know where this math came from, would you?


I haven't the faintest idea. If I had to guess, I'd say it came from EJ, possibly with internal addendums. All I know is, finally the dps warriors and rogues found a solution that they could both live with. And that makes it 100% optimal, because I don't have to listen to bitching about it anymore.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby xstratax » Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:39 pm

jere wrote:
xstratax wrote:According to TheckHD's own signature, which links to the Expertise calculation, Exp is 80% as good as dodge for worst-case, or are you talking about something else when you say its 4 times as good (i read 4x as 4 times, which means 400% where i come from...that could be where i misunderstand you)


You should read the first post in the link in his signature (the one that says expertise is 80%):

* Expertise is about 73% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage (first link).
* Expertise is about 69% as effective as dodge rating for reducing the number of incoming attacks that connect (also first link).
* Expertise is actually 2x-4x better than dodge at reducing spike damage intake from boss melee attacks, with the added benefit that it preferentially reduces the largest spikes, thus smoothing out our spike damage by reducing the maximum spike size (second link).
* Each point of expertise rating also gives us about 1/3 of a point of STR.


I am assuming that is the most updated, but would need to read through the thread more to verify and don't have the time atm.



I figured I missed something, but better to ask and seem foolish than to ignore and be foolish eh
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Thels » Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:27 am

Parry-haste is disabled for all bosses where it matters, so Expertise is not too awesome for avoidance.

However, even when softcapped, the Seal of Vengeange glyph remains the best unconditional threat glyph, remaining slightly ahead of the Judgement glyph.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Ciremo » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:33 pm

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I'm just wondering if the armor cap is attainable with the available gear now. Considering all the emblem gear and craftables, it looks like we'll be able to have a near full set with armor bonuses.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:56 pm

Ciremo wrote:Sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I'm just wondering if the armor cap is attainable with the available gear now. Considering all the emblem gear and craftables, it looks like we'll be able to have a near full set with armor bonuses.

Maybe. You'll be able to go nice and close, I'd expect. Remember bosses are 83, which makes the cap harder to reach (unless I'm mis-remembering).

Issue will be the change to Inspiration and equivalent procs. I was flirting with the cap back in 3.1 (73%?) in my full armour/EH set, with armour trinket clicked and an Indestructible pot and the old "bonus armour" proc from shaman/priest healers.

Since switching to dual-stam trinkets and the change to Inspiration, I'm nowhere near, but there was no "bonus armour" pieces in ToC.

The ICC "armour set" looks very nice, assuming that we have some large scale physical burst-damage in ICC. Problem with WotLK is that so far most tank-destroying burst has been magical damage. But there's very clearly 2-3 "sets" in ICC:
  • One EH piece with bonus armour.
  • One Avoidance piece with def/dodge/parry.
  • One threat piece with hit (very common) or expertise (too rare), plus defence and one of dodge/parry.
Whether all three sets will be useful is not clear yet, because we don't know what the hard-modes are.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Thels » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:01 am

Thels wrote:Parry-haste is disabled for all bosses where it matters, so Expertise is not too awesome for avoidance.

However, even when softcapped, the Seal of Vengeange glyph remains the best unconditional threat glyph, remaining slightly ahead of the Judgement glyph.


the Seal of Vengeange glyph ain't that unconditional anymore, considering how good Seal of Cleave is for AoE situations.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Gamingdevil » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:11 am

Thels wrote:
Thels wrote:Parry-haste is disabled for all bosses where it matters, so Expertise is not too awesome for avoidance.

However, even when softcapped, the Seal of Vengeange glyph remains the best unconditional threat glyph, remaining slightly ahead of the Judgement glyph.


the Seal of Vengeange glyph ain't that unconditional anymore, considering how good Seal of Cleave is for AoE situations.


It's unconditional for bosses. Not many people care about aoe-fest trash.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby rocket » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:43 pm

I wouldnt say that it is a requirement now (at this point with no heroic content).

SoV Glyph is not required for the add OT on heroic Anub 25, perhaps still the most difficult of the available encounters. As the MT, I would likely still use it (but alas i am the 4-add OT)
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