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3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:53 am

Wierd, with all the raid wide regen, jow, and Divine Plea, I have to work pretty hard to drain my mana when I'm not tanking.

One other thing to keep in mind, is that if you are usually on adds, they are often not level 83, and their parry and dodge chance is a little lower. Anub is really the only ToC encounter with a lot of add tanking going on that I can think of, and his adds are level 82 I believe.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:34 am

My only concern at this point is what would be more useful for me in this situation: Glyph of Judgement or Glyph of SoV.

One of the ironies is that I gladly gave up my MT spot to the warrior in ToC25 (we have tanked together for months and we often alternate MT roles in 10man version) just so the DPS can have an easier time thanks to his Sunder Armors. Of course, its because that role that I get to deal with mana issues.

My mana issues in Heroic instances are more likely the result of lazy healers; I've had boomkins (out of that form) heal me thru heroics and proper healers spent half the time dpsing instead.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zothor » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:40 am

Klaudandus wrote:One of the ironies is that I gladly gave up my MT spot to the warrior in ToC25 (we have tanked together for months and we often alternate MT roles in 10man version) just so the DPS can have an easier time thanks to his Sunder Armors. Of course, its because that role that I get to deal with mana issues.


This exact thing has happened to me. Because of how easily Prot Warriors keep up a crucial debuff without hurting their job, vs a DPSer dropping GCDs and rage/combo points to do so, our recently recruited warrior tank is maintanking almost everything in my place now. He's very good so I have no problem with it, but the only people complaining about my not tanking are the hunters now, and I can still toss up JoW for them or put a holy paladin on it.

I've gone, because of the game design importance of sunder, from being my guild's best geared and main tank, to being our primary offtank practically overnight. It's a little weird. I don't particularly mind it because the warrior we recruited is doing his job well (nothing more frustrating than watching someone do something poorly that you could do better), but it's a little frustrating that this huge advantage swings the tides.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:07 am

Like I stated before, the warrior and I have been tanking buddies for quite a while now so we have really good synergy. And we just play to the strength that will benefit the raid the most.

On fights where dps burning is not an issue, I am the one taking the boss as I mitigate for more than him. On fights where it is, he takes the boss for his debuffs.

Just because we've become very viable MTs for just about any fight, it can be counterproductive to get the same mentality as warriors had back in Pre-BC and even thru parts of BC and say that we're sticking to the MT role just because we say so. I think that's what allowed my raid, specially in 25 (ToC10 FC was our bane 1 weekend) to keep clearing everything as it came out.

Like I said, our raid is fluid enough to move critical roles around and people willing to do so accordingly. Sadly, this is not enough to carry us thru TotGC as our dps is subpar but as we clear TotC we should solve that issue.

Of course, I still have to find out what would be better for me because of all the issues stated before: Glyph of Judgement or Glyph of SoV/SoC (even while SoV/C is situational because of my roles)
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby jere » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:55 am

SoV does not need to be too situational for you really. If you are having mana problems, drop consecration from your rotation as needed (I.E. use it if your mana is above 50% and don't if it is below it, or some similar subjective rule that works out for you.).

To counteract the possible threat loss, use the valiance libram (200 STR from SoV) in place of your dodge libram (or whatever libram you use). You should be able to keep up your mana with divine plea and judgement of wisdom if you leave out consecration as needed. In that scenario, you should be able to keep the SoV glyph which is better than the judgement glyph in that scenario.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:37 am

That's the funny part, I do it like that (No consecration when below 50% mana) - I keep my Divine Plea up and I judge wisdom and I still end losing mana too fast unless I drop my SoV and go back to SoW.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:50 am

Klaudandus wrote:Like I stated before, the warrior and I have been tanking buddies for quite a while now so we have really good synergy. And we just play to the strength that will benefit the raid the most.

On fights where dps burning is not an issue, I am the one taking the boss as I mitigate for more than him. On fights where it is, he takes the boss for his debuffs.


Just be sure that it is to the raid's benefit. The marginal DPS loss from a dps warrior maintaining Sunders is very low. Most of the cost comes from getting the stack up, but 20 rage every 30 seconds at ToGC gear levels is the loss of roughly 1 heroic strike and 0.15 slams every 30 seconds. The marginal DPS gain from a paladin tanking is higher than that, generally speaking. We do a lot of DPS while tanking. If you're keeping debuffs on the boss while offtanking, it's a pretty similar situation for your prot warrior to sunder while offtanking, at least to get the stack built up.

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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:45 am

Well, the warrior tank is the only warrior we take to our ToC25 - so he's the only one that can apply the Devastates(Sunder Armor) and since its part of his tanking rotation, there's no DPS loss
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Levantine » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:30 am

Missed the point completely.

What Meloree is saying, is that if you tank and the Warrior DPS's, the effective change in raidDPS would be a wash at worst, since Paladin tanks do more DPS than Warrior tanks, and the DPS lost from a Warrior maintaining a Sunder stack is minor.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zothor » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:32 pm

Levantine wrote:Missed the point completely.

What Meloree is saying, is that if you tank and the Warrior DPS's, the effective change in raidDPS would be a wash at worst, since Paladin tanks do more DPS than Warrior tanks, and the DPS lost from a Warrior maintaining a Sunder stack is minor.


That was actually my situation, not his, which might have been why he didn't quite understand it :P

I haven't played a warrior in... god, ages, but isn't sunder on the GCD? The rage loss may be managable, but 5 GCDs is a decent damage loss to ANY class while he's getting the stack up. I'm also told that Arms warriors have a particularly nasty time keeping sundermanagement up because of rage issues.

My warrior may just be whiney though.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:20 pm

Levantine wrote:Missed the point completely.

What Meloree is saying, is that if you tank and the Warrior DPS's, the effective change in raidDPS would be a wash at worst, since Paladin tanks do more DPS than Warrior tanks, and the DPS lost from a Warrior maintaining a Sunder stack is minor.


'cept the only warrior we carry IS the tank. So either he's tanking the boss or tanking the adds, and with him tanking the boss, the dps take advantage of his Sunder Armors.

If I tank, then the warrior has to keep the adds busy; yeah, my dps is higher but the only thing I bring to the table is +3% extra crit. And we have tried and we have killed him with me MTing Anub, the DPS just have an easier time with him doing his stuff.

Yeah, he can sunder anub while tanking the adds but we prefer to concentrate on one thing at a time, if it works why break/fix it.

So I really didn't miss the point -- least I don't think so.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Meloree » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:38 pm

Zothor wrote:I haven't played a warrior in... god, ages, but isn't sunder on the GCD? The rage loss may be managable, but 5 GCDs is a decent damage loss to ANY class while he's getting the stack up. I'm also told that Arms warriors have a particularly nasty time keeping sundermanagement up because of rage issues.


Fury Warriors a) aren't GCD locked, they're cooldown locked, b) aren't rage starved in ToC level gearing. Getting the stack up is a significant cost (which is why I commented that the prot warrior can get them stacked, he can do it quickly and cheaply), but amortized over a 5 minute fight, even getting the stack up is a very marginal dps loss. Maintaining the stack is about as close to free as debuffing gets. It's a little tougher for arms warriors, but maintaining the stack is still a very marginal dps loss for them.

Klaudandus wrote:'cept the only warrior we carry IS the tank. So either he's tanking the boss or tanking the adds, and with him tanking the boss, the dps take advantage of his Sunder Armors.


This is why I covered my statement with "just be sure..." If the option is Sunder vs. No Sunder, it's a no brainer, of course. I was just saying that there's additional variables that your first post seemed to have glossed over, but which you'ld obviously already been aware of.

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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Apollya » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:44 am

knaughty wrote:Pursuit of Justice is lovely, but is in Tier-3, competing with Conviction. Take it if you like running fast more that hurting things.


Yeap agree with pretty much all you've said in regards to speccing, I say pretty much the same in my own guide on blizz forums.

Just one slight pang in the above sentence. Sure conviction is threat and PoJ is "speed". But in a way PoJ is kind of threat too. Basically it allows us to move faster re-position faster and start with the TPS faster. A lot of casters (moonkin as an example take Tuskarr's vitality as their highest threat enchant on boots). PoJ is twice as effective as Tuskarr's vitality.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby xstratax » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:25 am

There is another option to consider in the sunder vs no sunder...expose armor, or Acit Spit from Hunters with Jormungar pets. Again it could be a minor DPS loss to either player, but youre gaining a critical buff for your group. All the rogue would have to do is sub a 5pt Finisher for a 5pt Expose once every 30sec...if thats too much to ask of them one has to wonder why they cant be asked to sacrifice a little...god knows everyother class has had to do it at some point in the past 5 years...
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zothor » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:34 am

xstratax wrote:There is another option to consider in the sunder vs no sunder...expose armor, or Acit Spit from Hunters with Jormungar pets. Again it could be a minor DPS loss to either player, but youre gaining a critical buff for your group. All the rogue would have to do is sub a 5pt Finisher for a 5pt Expose once every 30sec...if thats too much to ask of them one has to wonder why they cant be asked to sacrifice a little...god knows everyother class has had to do it at some point in the past 5 years...


While I agree that a rogue that refuses to expose would need to be addressed, all of our rogues are happy to help the raid in any way they can. The consensus though among our two officers with the most melee dps experience (a rogue and a warrior, both having played those toons since early Vanilla) though is that, unless the rogue is significantly undergeared relative to the warrior it is less total DPS loss for any warrior to maintain sunders. Those combo points are too valuable to raw damage output.
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