3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:06 pm

I'd like to talk briefly about the Glyph of Avenger's Shield, since you give it a pretty short treatment.

I'll admit upfront that I'm both a re-glypher and a re-speccer, even on farm for more difficult fights.

One major benefit Glyph of Avenger's Shield has going for it is the snap-threat component. I'm not sure about everyone elses guilds, but in Edge, I typically see frostfire bolts flying over my head on incoming, and the glyph of Avenger's Shield makes a noticeable difference at Ignis, XT, some of the "single big mob" trash pulls, and Yogg (with any number of keepers, but especially 0), simply for putting out large snap threat now that exorcism is missing. If you do Freya3 with a 2-tank strat like we do, again, glyphed AS is very useful. I generally pick up the conservator for our warrior tank, just to dump an extra 30k odd snap threat in for him, even though I'm tanking Freya. It also glues my add from the 3pack to me pretty well. On Mimiron, it helps to toss the AS at the head on cooldown in P4, just to give the boomkins/ele shamans a bit more leeway, and in P3, again, it glues Assault Bots on that little bit harder at the beginning when the DPS is jumpy. It's also a little something extra to do when you're running away from shock blasts in P1, or a dps increasing move over holy shield in P2. If you're the offtank at Vezax hardmode, glyphed AS helps glue the add on that little bit harder at a time when ranged is doing up to four times their usual dps.

For all that, I'm not sure if I'd use the glyph as one of my 3 if I couldn't reglyph on command. It certainly has no value at IC, and Salvation used to be nice there (before p3 became 2 tank phases). I prefer AS unglyphed at Thorim, both for hallway and arena tanking. I don't waste the glyph slot on it at Algalon. If Razorscale, Kologarn, and Auriaya are worth considering at all, those are fights I wouldn't want the glyph.

But given all that, I think it's a pretty strong weapon in our arsenal, and this is the Advanced FAQ.

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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Arizara » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:15 pm

Considering the philosophy of the faq's here, I wanted to point out that in these topics, it doesn't talk about judging wisdom as a better pick for oom issues.
I find i have to judge wisdom in 5 mans with disc priests even with sanc unless i have a totem/wisdom blessing/replenishment, whereas I tend to use light in raids. I'm guessing that Light from another pally still proc's the SA mana gain but in the multipally raid environment, mana's hardly a concern when you're taking damage.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Meloree » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:39 am

I almost always judge wisdom. If there's a second paladin, they judge light, but with the exception of Vezax (Wisdom does nothing) and Hodir (not even hunters go oom in 2 minutes), I think JoW uptime is more important than JoL uptime.

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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Iselian » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:30 am

Judgements are situational as always with the exception of when you're spotting 2+ paladins in the raid. In my 10man we lost our healadin for a bit (RL FTL) and I was the only one. As Mimiron-Hard started beating us in the face, I switched from my habitual JoW to JoL, especially during phase 2.

Now as far as what I judge without a second thought, it's wisdom. I trust my healers. But when things are getting dicey or it's a strictly healer-intensive fight/phase (again, Mimi-hard-2) then I would think everyone does what they can to help every bit, and I'm no exception.

Besides, if there's a ton of raid damage going around, you're taking it too and spiritual attunement ought to make up for the JoW loss, at least personally. DPS can suffer a bit to stay alive ;P
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zothor » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:23 pm

I hear it from my Hunters if I don't keep JoW up on whatever I'm tanking, but probably because my hunters are whiney pansies.

In light of Theck's work on the avoidance value of Expertise, can we safely upgrade Glyph of Seal of Vengeance to a Mandatory glyph instead of just strongly recommended?
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Halnoth » Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:35 pm

Zothor wrote:I hear it from my Hunters if I don't keep JoW up on whatever I'm tanking, but probably because my hunters are whiney pansies.

In light of Theck's work on the avoidance value of Expertise, can we safely upgrade Glyph of Seal of Vengeance to a Mandatory glyph instead of just strongly recommended?


Well no b/c you could possibly get close to the cap without it with ToC gear.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:13 pm

Zothor wrote:I hear it from my Hunters if I don't keep JoW up on whatever I'm tanking, but probably because my hunters are whiney pansies.


Tru dat.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zothor » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:23 pm

Halnoth wrote:
Zothor wrote:I hear it from my Hunters if I don't keep JoW up on whatever I'm tanking, but probably because my hunters are whiney pansies.

In light of Theck's work on the avoidance value of Expertise, can we safely upgrade Glyph of Seal of Vengeance to a Mandatory glyph instead of just strongly recommended?


Well no b/c you could possibly get close to the cap without it with ToC gear.


Umm... the hard cap? like, the parry cap which is somewhere in the 50s? I don't think that's possible.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:54 pm

56, and yes it is technically possible though would highly unlikely to find that your best combination of gear yielded it.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Thels » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:19 am

majiben wrote:56, and yes it is technically possible though would highly unlikely to find that your best combination of gear yielded it.


Is it? With the best tanking gear I can lay my hands on, I currently have 50 expertise. That's without any expertise enchants or gems, or picking items for expertise (but with the glyph, enchant and racial). I could swap a trinket and never be parried again, if I understand correctly.

Would it at some point become useful to swap my dodge/sta gems (of which I have like 5-6 in my gear) for exp/sta gems, just to nullify the chance of getting parried? I guess that could help my survivability at some fights?
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby majiben » Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:19 am

I couldn't say exactly how valuable it would be for you, looking at theck's thread on it might be useful for you.

Don't forget I was speaking about 56 skill without the SoV glyph, with the gylph it's much easier to get to 56.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Thels » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:19 am

majiben wrote:Don't forget I was speaking about 56 skill without the SoV glyph, with the gylph it's much easier to get to 56.


Ah, true.

Anyhow, I've been reading up on the other topics, and the situations where parrygibs are dangerous are really limited. Point is, I could easily swap out a trinket to be right at expertise hardcap (counting glyph), so even if it's only useful at one fight, I can use it there.

Of course, with the Brewfest out there, it means sacrificing 170 stamina, which is about 2000hp :(
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Stripperella » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:10 am

Is the glove enchant Major Agility not mentioned for a reason? Is it worse than Glove reinforcement in all scenarios? I notice major agility is worth a whole gem where heavy borean armor kit is about half an epic gem.

I am also having trouble deciding what to do with my gems. I am maintaining my parry/dodge at about = levels (in regards to dr not rating) and am uncrushable/unhittable, but i am now reaching a gray area where agility is looking good but is hard for me to quantify. I don't know if i should go more pure avoidance or start swapping for agi/parry/dodge/def + stam gems. So far i have socketed heavily on stalwart/glimmering ametrine in red/yellow and stam in blue. Are there any rules of thumb to follow that i have missed?

Also, when you are uncrushable and unhittable, defense no longer contributes competitively from just eyeballing it, is it still worth socketing for? Where is the cutoff where socketing for a bonus is worse than breaking it?

I'm sorry if my questions are poor or already answered better elsewhere.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:18 am

I'm hugely past the expertise soft-cap. In my "best" gear I'm currently running 40 expertise. 24 from gear, 6 from talents, 10 from the Glyph. My gear's good, but not outrageously so - I'm still wearing a Naxx-era cloak, two plate pieces from Ulduar-25 (gloves & belt), the Thorim hard-mode ring and have no ToC trinkets.

If it wasn't for Theck's work showing that the glyph is equivalent to like 80 dodge rating against mobs that can parry-haste, I'd drop the glyph and still be over the softcap.

On the trinket note... we've never had the Ulduar-10 trinket drop, and have had zero tanking trinkets in ToC as well. Tank-trinket RNG engine hates us.
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Re: 3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:43 am

I have this issue, I can MT Anubarak in ToC25 but I am relegated to offtank/backup tank most of the time (which I actually don't mind, its a quick raid and I get easy loots -- although I don't need that much) and I get along with everyone. But because of that, I suffer of mana issues at times -- the exception being when it hits the fan and I end up MT the boss due to one of the other tanks dying.

I currently have the Spiritual Attunement glyph because of the issue stated before; my question is this: My expertise stands at 19 (5 away from the softcap) and other current major glyphs are Divine Plea and Judgement -- should I drop Judgement in favor of SoV Glyph to reach the softcap or stay as is. Even with Divine Plea, my mana keeps constantly dropping whenever I use SoV - unless I'm actually tanking the boss at that time - so SoV is only situational for me.
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