Remove Advertisements

3.2 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby daiceman » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:19 am

See, this is the reason that I don't like the reduced range on justice, normally, you could just have holy judge justice, and everything would work out fine.
daiceman
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:53 pm

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:41 am

Hmm... good points re judging. Will have a think about it. Solution may depend on how your raid is set up (IE: Do you have all three specs)
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:04 am

Why wouldn't you just have Holy and Prot judge wisdom, and Ret Judge light? In my experience, the Judgement with JotJ on it never gets knocked off, it just doesn't stack with the others.

i.e., I judge wisdom, holy judges wisdom. The boss now has 2 JoW on him, because they count as different debuffs (one has the added JotJ effect). However, only one of the Judgements functions for mana return purposes.


Also, re: the engineering tinker - thanks for the math. I seem to remember Arcand calculating that it was roughly equivalent to 68 stamina when we first heard about it in another thread . Still feels annoying that I have to give up the 2% threat enchant to get it, when a BS or JC gets their extra EH essentially for free, but them's the breaks.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7716
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:15 am

Knaughty wrote:Someone point me at the SoB analysis in Theck's thread.

Here's the primary one. It and all the follow-ups are linked to from the table of contents now as well.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7716
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Nich » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:42 pm

Just for clarification on this talk of babysitting SS on another tank in the raid because there aren't enough holy pallies - are you also assuming ret won't have it? I assume it'd be easier for them to babysit SS than for us - I'm more likely to put mine on someone squishy, like a healer. Or no-one, and burn the talent points for the buff to DS.

I'm also surprised that so many raids have so few paladins - we usually have 5-6 per raid, talk of " ret judges light, a holy judges wisdom, a prot judges justice" gets redundant pretty quickly when everyone is overwriting everyone else's judgements >.> I'm with Theck in not seeing JotJ getting overwritten, too, which is why I usually default to wisdom with (almost) everyone else - one ret pally and one holy pally argue over who will judge light: the holy pally wants higher healing done numbers, but also has enough SP that his JoL does ~15 less healing per proc.
User avatar
Nich
 
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:09 pm
Location: au.Blackrock

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:19 pm

I'd put SS on myself under normal circumstances, if I was specced improved. If some other tank needs shields, disc priest/holy pally on them.

Re the Holy pally wanting to judge light to inflate his e-peen. If he's serious, rather than joking around? G-Kick, IMO. He's trading raid effectiveness (maximised JoL) for personal meter padding. I kick tards like that out of our guild, they're not worth the extra management they require.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Zironic » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:47 am

but also has enough SP that his JoL does ~15 less healing per proc.

That should be impossible, JoL scales equally from AP and SP and retridins tend to end up at 6k total(sp+ap), holies should have a hard time breaking 4k so the difference should be in the 200 range not 15(scaling is 10%).
Image
Zironic
 
Posts: 2133
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:07 am

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Yaizha » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:15 am

Well i have to say thanks for your well done job guys) When i first saw the new talents i got a bit meh... i have many spare points to use without taking off tanking talents! Where should i put em? With your theorycraft i see the light now! Lets see if it works in practice as in theory.

And i would state my choices for talents:

And as personal choice ill put 3 points on Divnity, its situational, usually useless as you stated, but i like the feel of it (and it can be the 3% more healing that saves you from a kill too).

HotC is a good choice from my point of view, i dont rely in other palading having it up, so ill do it (Maybe because i dont trust the holy paladins stacking or having it, and we have just casual rets, so i can't rely on em for this).

And the last point i will spend it on a fairly useless talent, Benediction. I'm not sure about this, but 2/2 ImpJ will make me mess a bit with CDs to sustain a 9696 rotation, so 2% more mana could help me when im doing dailies and so... or not, but i find useless to get imp might as i always buff Sanct, and no other chices are left.

Btw, i would love someone to do the same graphs and analysis for ret, as i will be dual prot/ret in 3.1... i don't want to be under other dpsers just because i dont know exactly whats better for ret (i've readed a bit but they are not as good as you doing maths and i dont rely on em much). Do you know or are planning to do somethig for ret? I was a bit awestuck with the talent build, coz i used all the good and meh talents and i still have 9 talent points to use! Maybe ill get some pvp ones just for fun, i dont think i can offtank or offheal with few talents in Ulduar as ret.

Thanks again for your great job!
Yaizha (Prot) - Uldum (EU)

Image

WoWing since May-9-2005 @ 23:22
Yaizha
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:41 am

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Dazhbog » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:25 am

Question re: SoB and trash tanking.

Does the SoV glyph start to lose some of its shine, since we're looking for expertise for trash but using SoB? Seems an almighty shame to lose 10 expertise skill in the situation where expertise counts more.
Image
User avatar
Dazhbog
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Pig and Whistle Tavern

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby knaughty » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:08 pm

Dazhbog wrote:Question re: SoB and trash tanking.

Does the SoV glyph start to lose some of its shine, since we're looking for expertise for trash but using SoB? Seems an almighty shame to lose 10 expertise skill in the situation where expertise counts more.


Comparisons of "Blood vs Venge" always assume that SoV has the glyph and blood doesn't.

Even so, SoB was looking better until the latest round of "two-roll" analysis that included crit-supression maths, which was about when my eyes glazed over and I went "Fuck this shit, I'm just using Vengeance". If you have to do a MATLAB analysis of your gear-set to work out if SoB is 27 TPS ahead of SoV ahead, it isn't worth worrying about.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby toothdecaykills » Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:51 am

Knaughty wrote:Comparisons of "Blood vs Venge" always assume that SoV has the glyph and blood doesn't.

Even so, SoB was looking better until the latest round of "two-roll" analysis that included crit-supression maths, which was about when my eyes glazed over and I went "Fuck this shit, I'm just using Vengeance". If you have to do a MATLAB analysis of your gear-set to work out if SoB is 27 TPS ahead of SoV ahead, it isn't worth worrying about.


I'm also pretty certain that Vengeance is still multitudes better at trash tanking than Seal of Blood, at least from a multiple mob tanking scenario. Being able apply Holy Vengeance on multiple targets is fantastic. Even in Ulduar, where you may want to have CC and multiple tanks actually tanking something, you'll find it to be extremely useful. After all, if one tank goes down, at least the buggers were getting hit by your Hammer, Consecration, and Holy Vengeance, meaning it isn't necessarily the healer or melee they'll go and kill.

But I digress. To me, it is simply a no brainer. Seal of Vengeance is a smarter choice for progression.
toothdecaykills
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Mithos » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:20 am

Hey, not visited for a while, so thanks a lot for the info :). Thought I should do some research now that we have actual decisicions to make in 3.1. Keep up the good work :).

I thing I don't know if anyone else has brought up though; how does Judgement's interaction with the Libram of Obstruction (BV when judgeing) and Shield of Righteousness factor into how much priority it has in rotations? It's a huge chunk of BV to miss out on and I guess almost all of us will be using it for a while.
Image
Mithos
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:54 am

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby toothdecaykills » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:26 am

This thread over on the WoW tanking forums is basically about your mana expense section. Its arguing about how 1/2 SA and BoSanc are confusing and clunky mechanics to new and casual players hoping to spur a last ditch change to their implementation. Actually had your section (of course credit was given) about it. I think its one of the few feedback/suggestion threads that don't sound like QQ.

Just figured I'd post this here to see if you had anything you wanted to contribute to that thread. Looks like there's precious little in the way of Paladin participation thar
toothdecaykills
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:50 pm

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:18 am

Mithos wrote:Hey, not visited for a while, so thanks a lot for the info :). Thought I should do some research now that we have actual decisicions to make in 3.1. Keep up the good work :).

I thing I don't know if anyone else has brought up though; how does Judgement's interaction with the Libram of Obstruction (BV when judgeing) and Shield of Righteousness factor into how much priority it has in rotations? It's a huge chunk of BV to miss out on and I guess almost all of us will be using it for a while.


Don't prioritize. If you're using a proper 9696 nothing should be colliding, so there won't be any choices to make. If you're not, it's too much of a tps loss anyway, wether you can use a buffed ShoR or not.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
Image
User avatar
Gamingdevil
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am
Location: Belgium

Re: 3.1 Frequently Argued Questions. AKA: Advanced tanking FAQ.

Postby Mithos » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:51 am

Obviously won't be screwing up 9696 :P. I mean't priority over Exorcism, AS, etc, since Knaughty talks about using those instead of judgement a lot of the time.
Image
Mithos
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:54 am

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest