The effects of Weapon Skill

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:30 am

Everlight wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:A rather significant amount of testing showed that it reduced dodges, but parry's had no measurable effect. I suppose that's not 100% solid proof but the data that's been posted seems pretty solid.


As a human, or non-human? I'm seeing across the board reductions in parries on ALL bosses with 5/5 WE as a non-human.

I've done a fair bit of digging on WWStats for these kind of figures, mostly examining logs from Horde warriors, so we can be sure we're not getting info from Humans by accident. The majority of the logs show parry rate around the 14-15% mark for level 73s. There's a few oddballs in there if you go digging, however most of the time further examination shows the tanks involved usually have Weapon Mastery and a weapon that gives them weapon skill.

As for me, I'm seeing a consistent reduction in Parries done by mobs. I'm not talking fractions of a percent, and I'm not talking sometimes being lower than the base 15%ish figure, I'm talking being quite a lot lower - like 10-12% instead of 14-15%.

The testing that was done on Venoxis does not match up at all with what I'm seeing. And whilst I hate pulling the "pre-TBC" card, it might be justifiable here.


I'm a dwarf, and actually I was parried at a slightly higher percentage with 3/5 WE versus 3/3 precision in my testing, but overall my total miss precentage was almost exactly the same.
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Postby Everlight » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:58 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I'm a dwarf, and actually I was parried at a slightly higher percentage with 3/5 WE versus 3/3 precision in my testing, but overall my total miss precentage was almost exactly the same.


Comparing 3/5 WE and 3/3 Precision isn't a valid test since Precision does not modify the 'parry' portion of the combat table. You having a slightly higher parry percentage with 3/3 WE was just noise.

The only valid comparison is to change only the number of points of Weapon Expertise you have. I did this, and have noticed a significant difference in miss, dodge, and parry rates.

Incidentally, my miss rate is now around the 1% mark - with zero +hit rating :)
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:04 pm

Everlight wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I'm a dwarf, and actually I was parried at a slightly higher percentage with 3/5 WE versus 3/3 precision in my testing, but overall my total miss precentage was almost exactly the same.


Comparing 3/5 WE and 3/3 Precision isn't a valid test since Precision does not modify the 'parry' portion of the combat table. You having a slightly higher parry percentage with 3/3 WE was just noise.

The only valid comparison is to change only the number of points of Weapon Expertise you have. I did this, and have noticed a significant difference in miss, dodge, and parry rates.

Incidentally, my miss rate is now around the 1% mark - with zero +hit rating :)


Well I wasn't actually attempting to setup a test, I just did some parsing of old combat logs when I had precision compared to current ones with WE. That said, I don't see why it's not a valid test, you said yourself that precision doesn't effect parries, so if WE should effect parries I should see a difference.
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Postby Everlight » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:37 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Well I wasn't actually attempting to setup a test, I just did some parsing of old combat logs when I had precision compared to current ones with WE. That said, I don't see why it's not a valid test, you said yourself that precision doesn't effect parries, so if WE should effect parries I should see a difference.


Right, I see what you're driving at, should have read more thoroughly. Couple of things;

* Did you only compare logs against fights that involved you hitting exclusively skull bosses?

* Were those bosses that you can fight for extended periods from the front, never hitting from behind?

* Were they bosses that do not cast spells?

Reason I ask is that when I compare an overall instance run, I don't notice much variance from having WE and not having it, because most of the time I'm smacking 70-72's. However, when comparing on a skull boss that I get to hit exclusively from the front, the difference is pretty apparent. And it matches up with examination of combat logs from others in those same fights (eg, Curator, Gruul, Maulgar, Prince). They get about 15% parries, I get about 12% parries.
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Postby Jarkeld » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:28 pm

From the elitist jerks forums, 2 guys did a test against one of the bosses in Zul'Gurub, a skull mob, so it counts at 3 lvls higher. Notice how dodge and miss change, but parry and block don't.


Therasiv had 3 more agi than Beaglej. This should result in a 0.12% higher crit and 0.12% less hit for Therasiv. Therasiv is at 365 weapon skill and Beaglej is at 350 weapon skill. All other stats identical.

Beaglej's results:

196 crits, 3933 hits, 396 blocks, 2030 glances, 692 misses, 419 dodges, 1016 parries, 8682 total attacks
415263 damage, 47.830339 damage per swing
272925 hit damage, 69.393593 hit damage per swing
105224 glance damage, 51.834483 glance damage per swing
2.258% crits
45.301% hits
4.561% blocks
23.382% glancings
7.971% misses
4.826% dodges
11.702% parries

Therasiv's results:

327 crits, 4845 hits, 442 blocks, 2369 glances, 521 misses, 323 dodges, 1148 parries, 9975 total attacks
533359 damage, 53.469574 damage per swing
347863 hit damage, 71.798349 hit damage per swing
127203 glance damage, 53.694808 glance damage per swing
3.278% crits
48.571% hits
4.431% blocks
23.749% glancings
5.223% misses
3.238% dodges
11.509% parries


PS: link -(post 32) http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11885-rogu ... ussion/p2/
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Postby Everlight » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:23 pm

Jarkeld wrote:From the elitist jerks forums, 2 guys did a test against one of the bosses in Zul'Gurub, a skull mob, so it counts at 3 lvls higher. Notice how dodge and miss change, but parry and block don't.


Yes, I've already noted that and commented;

The testing that was done on Venoxis does not match up at all with what I'm seeing. And whilst I hate pulling the "pre-TBC" card, it might be justifiable here.


The parry rate on Venoxis seems freakishly low compared to actual TBC bosses. Only 11.5% parries? Compare this rate to pretty much any other TBC boss, you'll notice their parry rate is typically a lot higher.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:25 am

Everlight wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well I wasn't actually attempting to setup a test, I just did some parsing of old combat logs when I had precision compared to current ones with WE. That said, I don't see why it's not a valid test, you said yourself that precision doesn't effect parries, so if WE should effect parries I should see a difference.


Right, I see what you're driving at, should have read more thoroughly. Couple of things;

* Did you only compare logs against fights that involved you hitting exclusively skull bosses?

* Were those bosses that you can fight for extended periods from the front, never hitting from behind?

* Were they bosses that do not cast spells?

Reason I ask is that when I compare an overall instance run, I don't notice much variance from having WE and not having it, because most of the time I'm smacking 70-72's. However, when comparing on a skull boss that I get to hit exclusively from the front, the difference is pretty apparent. And it matches up with examination of combat logs from others in those same fights (eg, Curator, Gruul, Maulgar, Prince). They get about 15% parries, I get about 12% parries.


It was all WWS log parses of kara bosses only. I believe it was Prince, Maiden, and Illhoof that I used. I think I may have had a romulo in there as well. I excluded the curator because of the evo. Illhoof worked well because of all the extra reckoning swings I get from tanking all the adds too. It was maybe 3 fights from each, except romulo, so not the biggest sample.
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Postby Lore » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:07 am

Everlight wrote:The parry rate on Venoxis seems freakishly low compared to actual TBC bosses. Only 11.5% parries? Compare this rate to pretty much any other TBC boss, you'll notice their parry rate is typically a lot higher.


You may be on to something.

There's a level 73 elite mob in Nagrand, up on the plateau to the west: http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=22357

He might be worth testing on.

Also, how the heck do I find parry rate in a WWS log? >.>
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Postby mconeone » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:56 am

You find parry rate by clicking the [+] link on the upper right hand corner of the dmg out box.
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Postby Lore » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:59 am

Bleh, looks like our logs were parsed with an old version of WWS or something, I don't have that option.

EDIT: Hmm, guess that's not really even possible. Maybe logs that aren't hosted on lossendil.com just suck?

http://www.jmhsoft.com/creports/9%2D09% ... float.html
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Postby adese » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:25 am

Lore wrote:Bleh, looks like our logs were parsed with an old version of WWS or something, I don't have that option.

EDIT: Hmm, guess that's not really even possible. Maybe logs that aren't hosted on lossendil.com just suck?

http://www.jmhsoft.com/creports/9%2D09% ... float.html


Yeah, you get a ton more options when you host the logs, which does suck. When you just look at the local report, you only see the results of the entire raid. When hosted, you get per boss and per player/mob break downs with more information than you could ever want.
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Postby Lore » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:26 am

Lame.
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Postby Warrender » Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:29 am

Lore wrote:Lame.


But totally understandable from a business point of view. They do sell hosting options on their server, IIRC.
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Postby jere » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:06 pm

They also host them for free. They don't charge unless you get an account. The catch is that they eventually delete your hosted files off their server. You usually get 15-30 days for free hosting depending on how lazy they get that month.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:24 pm

jere wrote:They also host them for free. They don't charge unless you get an account. The catch is that they eventually delete your hosted files off their server. You usually get 15-30 days for free hosting depending on how lazy they get that month.


You can also simply rehost your log when it's gone. All in all it's a great service for free.
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