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Neat DPS Trick

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Postby Selgar » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:43 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:You could also use Seal of Blood.


Would seal of blood pose some danger to the user with full Thaddius stacks?


As a prot pally SoB will not kill you (you have 30k hps), I used it as ret for the first time this week, was critting for 20k which is 6k knockback plus 500-600 from each non judgement. Almost killed myself a couple times you just have to pay attention, as prot though I can't imagine you will be doing the same level of damage and again you will have 20% more hps than a ret.
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Postby Voldiir » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:05 am

Actually you will be doing significantly less damage with your seal/judge than any ret pally due to talents.
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Postby Kelaan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:16 pm

I found that I had good results on Thaddius when I would abuse HoSacrifice on the main tank and keep Divine Plea on cooldown. SoBlood is also great, don't get me wrong. Still, even with SoV, I seem to do OK as long as I drop consecrate and sometimes HotR from my rotation. (SoB lets me use HotR, at least, and Exorcism/HoW) I'll sometimes use a TBC potion injector, but it's rarely seemed necessary.
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Postby Laz » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:35 pm

Seal of Wisdom works pretty good in offtanking situations, too. Of course, in 3.1 hopefully it'll be moot with the mana gain from DP. Then we can keep SoV up while offtanking for max DPS (although, be prepared to stop DPS even more often ;)).
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Postby Varmin » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:21 am

Especially if you are talking about DPSing on Thaddius, just swap to SoB.

It is only a slight DPS decrease, while giving you almost all the mana you need to maintain a full cycle. I sometimes have to drop consecrate out of my cycle every once in awhile, but that's it.

Don't swap to mail pieces that don't have str, the mana regen you gain won't be worth the dps you lose from swapping gear.

As previously said ret/warriors only swap to mail/leather pieces due to superior itemization.
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Postby Eanin » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:49 pm

None of the best in slot dps items for ret are mail. The reason ret paladins use them is to avoid mana problems when doing a full cycle with consecration.

I don't know what you mean by them using them because they're better itemised.
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Postby Varmin » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:56 am

Eanin wrote:None of the best in slot dps items for ret are mail. The reason ret paladins use them is to avoid mana problems when doing a full cycle with consecration.

I don't know what you mean by them using them because they're better itemised.


First off, a commonly used mail item is the mail helm from malygos, this is itemlevel 226 which is higher than any plate dps helm.

Secondly, Plate/strength DPS items are itemized worse than mail/leather. Plate/strength gear are always itemised with Strength/Stamina + 2 green stats. Mail/leather are always itemized with Agility/Stam/(int if mail) + 3 green DPS stats.

The more spread out stats are on a piece of gear, the more stats get out of it's itemlevel. (For example look at green of the *blank* gear, one that only has stamina only has slightly more stamina than a piece with Str/Sta.

There are several best in slot leather for ret/warriors for this reason, and is the reason why everyone wanted sunwell leather.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:30 am

Varmin wrote:First off, a commonly used mail item is the mail helm from malygos, this is itemlevel 226 which is higher than any plate dps helm


Nope. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44006


There are several best in slot leather for ret/warriors for this reason, and is the reason why everyone wanted sunwell leather.


The only non-plate BiS piece for Ret write now is http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40541 , which is neck and neck with the above mentioned http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44006 for best pairing with 4pT7. There's a pair of leather legs that would also make BiS if set bonuses weren't a factor, but that's because there are no ilevel 226 plate DPS legs.

The notion that leather/mail pieces are better itemized for us than plate pieces in a relic of TBC. There are a few leather pieces out there that are very good for us, it's true, but the inherent advantages you're citing for leather and mail aren't as strong as they may seem.
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Postby Varmin » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:45 am

TBH I had forgotten about that helm.
And I stand corrected on current Ret best in slots because I forgot that ret value Str much higher atm this expac.

The only reason why Ret currently uses almost no leather/mail is because str is very good for them, however other plate wearers already use several pieces of leather, and as gear progresses eventually ret will use more and more as well.

It's not a relic, it's a mathematical fact that leather/mail (agility for accessories) dps gear have more efficient use of their itemlevel, for some classes like fury warriors it has caught up very quickly, others like ret will take awhile for them to swap over.

If I'm not mistaken, warriors already prefer the mail helm, 2-3 pieces of leather, and agility rings.
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Postby cordelia » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:35 pm

One curious thing I found re: Mail is that Mail usually has much more crit on it than plate. Especially for paladins, where agi--> crit is a very good ratio. A mail piece itemized with Agi/Stam/Int and Crit/AP/X is often a huge crit upgrade over a plate piece itemized with Str/Stam and Crit/X. It is usually an AP downgrade, however.

However, I don't know enough about ret scaling to know whether or not the scaling of crit vs. ap will make mail BiS for ret pallies as gear ilvl increases. It is potentially possible, considering ret gains from Righteous Vengeance and the +crit damage meta.
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Postby Eanin » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:16 am

Strength is worth more than double per ilevel than any other damage stat for ret paladins, and almost certainly worth even more for us, since we get less out of crit and more from the BV attached to strength. Mail is there for the intellect and mana regen, not the dps. Occasionally, a mail item will be better than a plate item, but it's never BIS.

Just to give a sense of how useful int is for dps, I am able to use consecrate in my dps rotation, just by throwing on my healing shield.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:50 am

Eanin wrote:Just to give a sense of how useful int is for dps, I am able to use consecrate in my dps rotation, just by throwing on my healing shield.


I still question the accuracy of this result. Factoring in replenishment, that shield gives you 25 mp5. Using consecration every 9 seconds with 5/5 Benediction, on the other hand, consumes 482 mp5. There were extenuating circumstances and/or placebo going on here.
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Postby majiben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:09 am

Dorvan wrote:
Eanin wrote:Just to give a sense of how useful int is for dps, I am able to use consecrate in my dps rotation, just by throwing on my healing shield.


I still question the accuracy of this result. Factoring in replenishment, that shield gives you 25 mp5. Using consecration every 9 seconds with 5/5 Benediction, on the other hand, consumes 482 mp5. There were extenuating circumstances and/or placebo going on here.
The shield gives closer to 50 mp5 with DP on a 1/4th uptime. I still don't think that it's very good test since you would have to be hemmorraghing mana very slowly. You would OOM 8-10 minutes into the fight if the 50 missing mp5 was exactly enough to let you sustain your roation.

Yeah so I'm going to conclude the placebo effect.
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Postby Eanin » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:32 am

Hrmm... or maybe there was just a lot of splash damage that time (lots of people crossing the streams). I did manage to keep up consecration the entire Thaddius fight while using seal of corruption. I hadn't been able to do that before.

Look at it this way. 50 mp5 over the course of a 6 minute fight is 3600 extra mana. A runic mana potion is 4200-4400 extra mana. So, the shield is like having almost an extra mana potion on Thaddius.

Also: Am I right that int is worth 0.55 mp5, assuming kings, replenishment and plea every cooldown? 15 * 1.1 * (0.0125 + 0.0208333)
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:51 am

That looks right to me.
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