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Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

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Postby majiben » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 am

Use of judgements and predictive Consecrates help a lot. Plus your healers will usually get the threat first and allow you to RD off them.

The greatest challenge to AoE is the pick up rather than sustained threat. Greater Tps is small consolation when no one needs the extra room.
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Postby elfjorc » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:44 pm

Majiben wrote:Use of judgements and predictive Consecrates help a lot. Plus your healers will usually get the threat first and allow you to RD off them.

The greatest challenge to AoE is the pick up rather than sustained threat. Greater Tps is small consolation when no one needs the extra room.


The seeding Locks disagree.

The only way to give us Holy Wrath on all mob types would be to nerf our sustained aoe threat. Otherwise, it simply won't be balanced to add to our aoe threat in any way. Greater tps does make a difference every time those adds die, greater snap threat makes a difference if you absolutely cannot afford any single add not being on you. I'd argue that if the adds really hit for that much, the encounter can't really be designed to have one tank taking 12 or more of them for any reasonable period of time, there'd just be too much spiking involved.
Last edited by elfjorc on Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby majiben » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:48 pm

Why are your dps AoEing when there are drakes to kill?
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Postby elfjorc » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:51 pm

Majiben wrote:Why are your dps AoEing when there are drakes to kill?


That was my point. Sarth is right now one encounter where adds are picked up and not killed immediately. That's special for an add fight (faerlina-like mechanics being one of the other examples)
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Postby majiben » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:53 pm

What does that have to do with me giving advice on how to pick up adds for S+3? They asked a question, I answered. You said your locks (and thus you disagreed). Then you started talking about pick up in other fights to which I have my thoughts clear to. Your comments don't follow.
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Postby elfjorc » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:06 pm

Majiben wrote:What does that have to do with me giving advice on how to pick up adds for S+3? They asked a question, I answered. You said your locks (and thus you disagreed). Then you started talking about pick up in other fights to which I have my thoughts clear to. Your comments don't follow.


I just took the blanket statement and went with it. Sorry :)
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Postby Strendarr » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:30 pm

Majiben wrote:What does that have to do with me giving advice on how to pick up adds for S+3? They asked a question, I answered. You said your locks (and thus you disagreed). Then you started talking about pick up in other fights to which I have my thoughts clear to. Your comments don't follow.


That's kinda what I was thinking too... lol
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Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:37 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I think the "best sustained" bit comes at the expense of "best snap-aggro." For us to have comparable snap and superiour sustained seems a bit unbalanced.

I think you're right, but there's a difference between "no snap aggro," "comparable snap aggro," and "superior snap aggro" as well. We currently have no un-targeted AoE snap aggro ability, and one superior sustained aggro ability.

Compare this to warriors, who have two reasonably good AoE snap aggro abilities (TC + Shockwave), but very little in the way of sustained aggro.

AS and HotR really don't count for these purposes either - they're the tools that we use to compensate for the lack of snap AoE aggro, but that does not make them AoE snap aggro. Warriors have equivalent skills (roughly) in their toolkit in the form of Cleave and Heroic Throw.

I don't think it would be unreasonable if they changed Holy Wrath to hit all targets, doing less damage than it does now. Imagine if it did half or one quarter the damage Thunderclap did, so that it wasn't "comparable" snap aggro anymore. We'd still have the clearly superior sustained aggro, and have a much weaker version of the snap aggro ability. But "much weaker" is still more than "none at all."

Warriors would probably need a weak sustained aggro ability so that they weren't left short-handed, for similar reasons.

Note that I'm not suggesting that we need an AoE snap aggro ability any more than Warriors need better sustained AoE aggro - it's just something each class seems to be asking for.

elfjorc wrote:The only way to give us Holy Wrath on all mob types would be to nerf our sustained aoe threat. Otherwise, it simply won't be balanced to add to our aoe threat in any way.

I don't agree - a weak ability like the one I've suggested on a 30-second cooldown doesn't seem like a game-breaker. At worst, Warriors might need a Deep Wounds style aoe DoT to boost their AoE sustained aggro to equalize things a little.
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Postby Veilan » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:43 pm

Flying over the thread,

I can just say that Majiben's analysis is correct, snap AoE aggro is a weak spot of ours, unless against undead mobs.

People, just because we don't have problems with it now is not a proof of an incorrect assessment. It just means the issue isn't big, or we have learnt to deal with it. Personal skill != general observation of inherent class capability.

I personally don't really have problems, but it's notedly tough to get group threat against a warrior's shockwave + thunder clap before going oom from lack of BoS procs and SA mana.

My estimation is Blizz will eventually equalise it anyway. Making everything the same pulp is their big fad since wotlk. Well, yay for off-tanking manaregeneration, I guess :? .
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Postby Strendarr » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:21 am

I think this topic may be making me go a little bit crazy! lol, on this thread on the official forums that someone else had made about paladin snap aggro (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15661692177&postId=157946098988&sid=1#9), someone posted the typical

Our AoE threat is fine.


to which I then responded

NO.

Not "AOE threat"

it's aoe SNAP threat
SNAP
THREAT
SNAP SNAP SNAP SNAP SNAP SNAP SNAP SNAP SNAP
FREAKING SNAP
THREAT
NOT SUSTAINED
SNAP.

Let me re-iterate this for all the people who have ever made a reply like this to this issue that are somehow reading the original posts and completely MISSING THE POINT

it's NOT "buff our AOE threat"
it IS "give us a means of generating SNAP threat"

If I see one more person misrepresent the original subject then tear down their strawman misrepresentation, I think *I* am going to SNAP!

lol....

l2read.

ps. make holy wrath hit all types of mobs. lower the damage on consecrate, do whatever you think would "balance" things from a sustained point of view, but give us some kinda damn snap threat, please.



I must be going insane! lol!
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Postby elfjorc » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:43 am

Hai? I'm fairly certain I knew exactly what the OP were talking about, since it's been discussed for a fairly long time since the moment people realised Warriors are better for Sarth.
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Postby Frickit » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:47 am

what ive been seeing regarding OS3 is that it isnt that bad to pick up the adds and use all the long range abilities for blazes and such(when rd works)...but RD sucks. Well at least it has been for me due to the tendency of adds bouncing so quickly between healers. Either when I get 5 whelps and my consecration just doesnt hit one (compounded by hotr/as missing it too) or the healer aggro wins. This can be corrected with accuracy but our backup plan is shit.

Seems like almost every attempt I taunt the healer who has initial aggro if I dont get them all and they are already 180'ing and zipping toward a healer on the clear other side, and sometimes its bad like a pin ball goin between 3 healers in all directions and my 8 second cooldown did zilch to help me and theres 2 whelps goin haywire.
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Postby majiben » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:57 am

You're using 3 healers for S+3? And you're spreading them out? There's a large chunk of your problems.
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Postby elfjorc » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:01 am

Majiben wrote:You're using 3 healers for S+3? And you're spreading them out? There's a large chunk of your problems.


I think he's meaning on the 25-man, like generically bouncing off one healer to another.

@ Frickit : Those are where you should get raid members to use their stuns, especially said healers. Or have them bubble or get BoP'd or whatever. it's all about teamwork, and you KNOW those whelps are the only time you should be needing that kind of attention from the other raiders.
Last edited by elfjorc on Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby majiben » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:03 am

Ah
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