Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

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Postby Frickit » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:06 am

its some of the problem...people sometimes are simply in the wrong places and mostly dont think to help me out in anyway with adds.
have been trying 2 healer 10 man lately but its still a little rough. we one shot 2 drakes now though on both versions.

yea i hear ya they should be trying to stay alive but i think they're a little spoiled. people dont run to tanks...or fade fast enough...or stun anything...i mean not everyone but i do see that type of stuff going on.
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Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:19 am

Frickit wrote:its some of the problem...people sometimes are simply in the wrong places and mostly dont think to help me out in anyway with adds.
have been trying 2 healer 10 man lately but its still a little rough. we one shot 2 drakes now though on both versions.

yea i hear ya they should be trying to stay alive but i think they're a little spoiled. people dont run to tanks...or fade fast enough...or stun anything...i mean not everyone but i do see that type of stuff going on.

/temporarythreadderailon
Every time I've successfully done 10-man, we've gone with two healers (usually pally+druid/priest), and have one ranged DPS that can off-heal for twilight torment (usually a shaman). Otherwise, DPS on the first two drakes just seems too slow.

The adds seem far easier to pick up on 10-man, because it always feels like there's fewer of them, and fewer people they tend to head towards (usually just one healer, whom I can taunt off of regularly). Also, less people running around obscuring your vision.

Generally, I have one healer stand next to me in consecrate (druid or priest), and taunt off of the other one if he's farther away. Training your healers to believe that standing near you is the best way for them to "stay alive" helps too.
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Postby Apollya » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:13 am

Hmm seems like the usual idiot troll flame fest that always happens when someone tries to post something constructive / usefull on the Blizzard forums.

I for one like the idea and agree that a rework of consecrate could seriously help.

Our threat on 3-4 mobs is incredible hey even 6 or so mobs with a touch of alt-tabbing. And I mean HoTR, AS, Cons, judge while non-stop switching target to try and get aggro on everything.

but on the packs of 20 it's going to be a different story with half running everywhere.

But in TBC we were indeed the Kings of the AoE group, I remember the warrs and druids standing around doing practically nothing (except taunting) in MH and BT trash.

We have indeed lost that ability. Consecrate seems to pull less threat these days than Healers, which is not great, even with the consecrate in the right spot it can be hard to grab the whelp pack at Sarth +2/3. mobs do seem to just run through it and ignore it needing to be taunted back.

I don't know if the damage needs to be reworked, but if instead the threat was it might cause people not to flame / cry.

Also for HolyWraath they could easily work it so that the dmg hit all targets yet the stun only worked on undead. If they can get exorcism to crit only on undead am sure it's possible.
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Postby Nich » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:30 pm

I think the easiest solution is either making some form of HW work on non-undead - whether it's base damage but no stun, or half damage, whatever - or making consecrate able to crit. The latter isn't going to help with initial burst threat.

Then again, we have no 'true' aoe taunt, so I'm not sure if HW doing unmodified damage-sans-stun on a 30 sec CD is really going to be an issue.
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Postby Candiru » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:35 am

I'd like consecrate to have its CD removed.

Then we could stack up to 5 consecrates either all on top of each other, or around in a circle to pickup adds.

Of course, that would be very mana inefficient, and for most pack sizes using HotR, HolyShield etc would be better.
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Postby majiben » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:09 am

Wow that would be a mana hog. I like it though lol. would likely need some rebalancing.
Last edited by majiben on Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Frickit » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:23 am

how about something you can activate that makes you pulse for a short time and anticipates aggro free pops, so that when new things spawn mid combat they will see us first even for a moment. that would help me a ton. so itd be like healer aggro without having to heal. something with a long cooldown for situations like OS whelps.

that way when things pop they at least form up in my general direction instead of splintering.

beacon of hey over here

other than that, ive been soloing the adds and a well placed consecration and /closeeyes, tab, as, hotr, rdrdrdrdrd, openeyes /say are they all on me?? sweet.
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Re: Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby lakhesis » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:49 am

I actually feel the biggest issue with managing large-scale add waves is the shoddy targeting system.

Having to mouseclick & taunt/frisbee adds from 30 yards while surrounded by another 15+ adds, 2 drakes, 24 other players (plus pets) and a #&!@$ off big dragon waving it's wings around is a right pain in the proverbials. I'd really rather like something along the lines of an inverse-nameplates system (shows nameplates over enemy mobs more than 20 yards away & nothing on those in close). Really I'd like something a hell of a lot better than that tho...

That aside, as i think majiben mentioned somewhere back a bit, the introduction of add-wave situations where we see genuinely dangerous adds is quite possibly going to put real pressure on paladin tanks aoe pick-up (i.e. one-shot-kill type adds, rather than 2 or 3 shot kill adds like the enraged fire elementals on your clothies)...

However in that situation, one-shot-the-clothies style adds will probably be doing 12k+ physical hits on a tank, which does suggest to me you're probably only going to be tanking 3-5.. so things start to fall into our specialities again (obviously with larger hits & less-adds-per-tank if it was magic damage).

All in all, I'm not concerned presently. Mostly it's just a matter of yelling at healers/dps until they stop standing in stupid positions, and then being very apologetic on the occasions they actually stand in the right spot & you accidentally get 'em killed anyway =)

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Re: Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby baneoftruth » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:50 am

I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole thread, but I agree with the OP.

Here's my take on this:
Modify two spells, Righteous Defense and Consecration. As it stands, paladins do not have an AoE taunt, and we don't have snap AoE threat generation comparable to the warrior. So to fix this, we play to the strengths of our class. Have Consecrate apply a debuff to any mobs that run through it. Have Righteous Defense taunt its original 3 targets PLUS fixate on you any targets which are debuffed. Have the debuff fade after being out of consecrate for...idk...2-3 seconds? Only place I see this going wrong is if another tank drags their target (such as on Sarth...) through the consecrate...however, this risk is similar to the risk applied to a standard AoE-style taunt. You can't always get great benefit without risk...right?

Other than that, adjusting Holy Wrath to function like Exorcism does in 3.1 would be a viable solution.
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Re:

Postby RedFerno » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:46 am

cordelia wrote:Is it really that hard to AS 3 mobs, and HotR the other 3 that aren't dazed?

Honestly, I have very very little problems with snap threat. Between AS, Judgement, HotR, Consecration, Holy Shield, HoR, RD, and even SoL threat, I don't have many issues, really. Try tanking Sarth +3d adds. No Holy Wrath, No Exorcism. It's a challenge, certainly, but nothing a good paladin can't handle.


First I want to admit I've only been playing WoW for about 3 months - EQ finally burned me out after 10 years. I also want to admit that I didn't go nuts on searching as the lingo is different; can't find something if you don't know how to describe it!

Question is sort of two-folds. Raids arn't an issue as people tend to listen, it's the pugs and guild heroics that I find challenges.

- You mention using AS to zap 3 targets and then switch to the non-AS mobs to get them pulled in. I'm assuming that I'll need a little room to allow the non-AS to separate from the AS mobs such that I can easily target those and leverage our other taunts. Else, I might miss the 5th+ mob and basically further taunt the AS mobs.

- If a little room is required, how shall I say this.... How the hell do I get the aggressive DPS types to give me a moment to control the situation; notably the caster happy 'loks that love to drop AoEs. (That is aside from letting them die a few times before they get the point). Unlike EQ where you typically pull mobs to the group thus have time to get control and/or smartly pull a smaller set instead of the whole room, alot of times in WoW I have the group up by back-side... (or is it me just getting used to new game)
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Re: Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby Chunes » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:23 pm

Personally, the only change i want to see made to consecrate is the addition of that pretty rune-circle that blizzard and D&D got :'(

I really don't want to be pushed into the "aoe niche" for tanking any more than we already are and, at present, the tools we have to handle packs of mobs are *more than sufficient*

if I had to rate it i'd put paladins at the top, DK's a close second, warriors third and druids last (even with lol360°swipe). or perhaps on a scale of 1 to ten, paladins being 10,
10- pala
8.75 - DK
7 - warrior
6 - druid

we are arguably the best aoe tanks, so I ask, why is it necessary to fix what is not broken?

Furthermore, the paradigm in Ulduar (and presumably beyond) is not just "round 'em up and consecrate", but rather, "mark your primary FF's, mark your CC and pull carefully because this trash will rape you if you're not cautious."

The times when there is an overwhelming amount of mobs to handle, they generally have extremely low health and are usually part of a gimmic in a given boss fight (Kologarn's rubble being a notable exception, Auriaya's kitty swarm being a great example) and generally the varying degrees of the 4 tank's prowess at AoE tanking plays little into the success of the fight.

The argument of "mobs just run right through my consecrate" is true only if you use your consecrate passively rather than proactively. Even on one of the most notorious fights for consecrate to fail on (Sarth3D, whelp/flame duty), I have little to no problem catching at least 9/10 of the whelps with my consecrate alone and even if one does pass through, I have MULTIPLE ranged spells which can be used to establish a sufficient threat base to get the mob's attention.

Now, would I cry if consecrate got reworked into a "nova-esque explosion of holy glory on cast + toned down dot"? No, i probably wouldn't. Nevertheless, i don't think such a change is really necessary at this point in time.
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Re: Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby Venoseth » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:39 pm

Chunes wrote:The argument of "mobs just run right through my consecrate" is true only if you use your consecrate passively rather than proactively. Even on one of the most notorious fights for consecrate to fail on (Sarth3D, whelp/flame duty), I have little to no problem catching at least 9/10 of the whelps with my consecrate alone and even if one does pass through, I have MULTIPLE ranged spells which can be used to establish a sufficient threat base to get the mob's attention.


Have you had a bad flame wall come 6s~ before add spawns? It's hard to get consecrate in the right spot, and not get hit by the flame wall, while dragging the adds that are already on you sometimes. The mob's tendancy to run away before they get to me is obnoxious. Over-all, I'm happy with Paladin AoE tanking tho'. With their wealth of CDs and more powerful (last I checked) DoT (which they can place wherever they want...) I'd say DKs are #1 for AoE tanking (or were pre-3.1). ^^
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Re: Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby toothdecaykills » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:41 am

Venoseth wrote:
Chunes wrote:The argument of "mobs just run right through my consecrate" is true only if you use your consecrate passively rather than proactively. Even on one of the most notorious fights for consecrate to fail on (Sarth3D, whelp/flame duty), I have little to no problem catching at least 9/10 of the whelps with my consecrate alone and even if one does pass through, I have MULTIPLE ranged spells which can be used to establish a sufficient threat base to get the mob's attention.


Have you had a bad flame wall come 6s~ before add spawns? It's hard to get consecrate in the right spot, and not get hit by the flame wall, while dragging the adds that are already on you sometimes. The mob's tendancy to run away before they get to me is obnoxious. Over-all, I'm happy with Paladin AoE tanking tho'. With their wealth of CDs and more powerful (last I checked) DoT (which they can place wherever they want...) I'd say DKs are #1 for AoE tanking (or were pre-3.1). ^^


I think we need to recognize that each person is overvaluing a different part of AoE tanking. I'd agree that Paladins are by far the best at maintaining AoE threat, and thanks to Holy Shield and Redoubt, probably the best at mitigating that incoming damage as well. However, when it comes to Death Knights, they are probably better at the initial round up, and I'd say this is only because D&D doesn't have the stationary limitations that Consecration has. I'd like to think skilled players can tilt the balance here with proper use of a two 8 second cooldown taunts (one that can grab multiple target), a 30 yard instant single target spell, and a 3 target chain ability, which are all usable at the beginning of a fight and do not require a build up of resources.
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Re: Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby Levantine » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:01 am

Death and Decay is most assuredly Stationary, with a longer cooldown to boot! What it DOES have over Consecrate is a targeting icon like other AoE.
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Re: Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby Lightstrike » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:30 pm

We don't need any extra snap threat at all.. we have consecration which should be pre-laid if you know the spawn point for consistent threat, HotR which glyphed will boost threat by a large amount especially if using SoV/SoC on 4 mobs in melee range. We then have Avengers shield which can hit up to 3 ranged mobs to provide some base threat on them, and then 2 single target ranged attacks that give us some good threat lead if use properly, those being Exorcism and Hand of Reckoning.

I would be happy if this change were implemented...
Consecration is a static aura that lasts for 8 seconds, the same as it is now, except it acts as a debuff for those standing in it rather than just damage.
Then perhaps you could have it so that in the prot tree you can extend the length of consecration, but not the cooldown by 2 seconds. Casting consecration where another consecration is refreshes the debuff on any mob still affected by the old one and increases it as a stack doing a little more damage.. That way consecration wouldnt be OP in PvP, and wouldn't be faceroll aoe threat in any fight you need to move about in, but for trash and things such as the whelps in sarth where you can tank adds statically it would provide a decent bonus.

Or you could stop whinging and just use your wings effectively.
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