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Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

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Paladins and AOE threat, now and in future

Postby Strendarr » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:19 pm

This is something I put up in the tank forums on the official website, and I wanted to see what you guys think as well.


First off, future use. Right now in Naxxramas on the big trash pulls Holy Wrath is great for giving us a bit of burst threat and a stun which allows us to move to wherever we want to stand to tank them and drop a consecrate right under them for them to bake in. However, that's not going to work soon. The new content is coming and we will suddenly have a lot more trouble with AOE threat.

Second, Consecrate. Consecrate has no snap threat and lots of times mobs run right through it. It makes Paladin AOE tanking on large groups of *NON-UNDEAD* unreliable. I don't want to be given something that's going to make it easymode, but I'd like to have a skillset where if I play well enough I can get the threat.

Since mobs will simply sometimes run right through consecrate, I'd like to see a rework of it.

Either make it half-instant damage to grab aggro and then the rest of the CD be spent on a weak area DOT effect (basically what it is now but frontload the intial 3 ticks into a burst when it first gets used then make the rest of the ticks into a much weaker form, keep the overall Damage Over Time the same but just make a third of it happen instantly then the other two thirds of the damage slowly tick over the next 7 seconds), OR make it have a slowing effect so the mobs have to get some ticks on them so it at least has an effect. The problem with that is: mobs that are immune to snares it wouldn't work on, and the slow would be able to be used in PVP by Paladins and nobody wants to see that.

So my personal endorsement is for changing it to a third instant damage, the other two thirds be portioned out into a DOT effect.

I don't want consecrate to do any more damage, just for it to be reworked to remove the randomness and add reliability.

Basically its either that or start having mages Frost Nova incoming trash mobs just so I can place a consecrate right under the nova'ed group to make sure it ticks a few times on them after I put it down.

I'd just like the ability to be brought up to today's standards. It used to be one of the only AOE tanking abilities in the game, but because it didn't get updated when all the class changes were made, it's now the least reliable and the worst.

I'm concerned about effectiveness of Paladin AOE tanking once we're no longer able to use Holy Wrath.

There's a big difference for a Paladin between running Drak Theron Keep or Ahn Kahet (undead mobs) vs running something like Halls of Stone or Halls of Lightning. I've already seen the differences in AOE tankability when able to use Holy Wrath vs not being able to and being left with unreliable Consecrate. Please consider this proposal.
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Postby majiben » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:57 am

Add a link to the thread.

I personally favor HW being usable on all mob types much like the change to exorcism and having the stun only work on evil mobs.

You should also bring up the following:
Our mitigation on AOE is roughly the third worse (Assuming frost fever can be AoE spread).
Our TPS not tops (I haven't studied it's exact ranking lately)
Our Snap threat on AoE packs (not small packs but true aoe situations) is the worst
Our ability to move and reposition is dreadful And the worst.

It's not to say that we are without hope it's just that we are disadvantaged in this area and we were so used to being the kings of AOE in TBC that we didn't think to check again in the wotlk beta.
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Postby Equitas » Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:54 am

Good post, id appreciate a link, im sharing the same concerns =/
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Postby Noradin » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:12 am

Majiben wrote:Add a link to the thread.

I personally favor HW being usable on all mob types much like the change to exorcism and having the stun only work on evil mobs.

You should also bring up the following:
Our mitigation on AOE is roughly the third worse (Assuming frost fever can be AoE spread).
Our TPS not tops (I haven't studied it's exact ranking lately)
Our Snap threat on AoE packs (not small packs but true aoe situations) is the worst
Our ability to move and reposition is dreadful And the worst.

It's not to say that we are without hope it's just that we are disadvantaged in this area and we were so used to being the kings of AOE in TBC that we didn't think to check again in the wotlk beta.


I aggree with the HW change, but I don't think the stun would be to strong for prot - ret would be the problem.

What annoys me the most ist that our average mitigation actually goes down with the number of mobs we tank whereas it is constant for other tanking classes. Our damage intake increases more than linear with the number of mobs.
Unforunately everything we use is based on charges whereas those got removed for other tanking classes.
- HS has charges (Shieldblock, Damage Shields and Critical Block as well as all other means of mitigation do not)
- JotJ only hits one (two with switching) mob(s)
- if we don't use a warrior or druid for demo shout but a warlock it will only hit one
We are best for tanking up to 3 mobs at once. If we get above that our threat and mitigation will go down a huge step.

Since lager goups are mostly made up of trash mobs it is no real problem right now, but it is kind of annoying.

Would be great if they changed at least HS (no more charges - its not like it would be a problem in PvP or would make our threat on bosses OP), Redoubt (more like critical block?) and JotJ (have it applied to everything that hits you? have it part of an aura like totem which give 3% crit debuff?) to loose less value on larger groups.
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Postby Ismet » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:49 am

I dont consider consecration lacking snap aggro a big problem, dds can wait for a sec or 2 and then go wild on the pack... but its annoying that TC is so darn powerful in terms of adding mitigation compared to our JotJ. When tanking drakes at Sarth, or Kel Thuzads adds i tend to kite them through the warriortanks TC at the point when it really starts to hurt... imho JotJ should have an effect on consecration, rather than on judgements.
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Postby majiben » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:24 am

Not having AoE snap is an issue for pick up not for sustained tps. We don't have sustained AoE tps issues. We have mobility and pick up issues.
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Postby Markoh » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:42 am

Majiben wrote:Not having AoE snap is an issue for pick up not for sustained tps. We don't have sustained AoE tps issues. We have mobility and pick up issues.


This is exactly the issue. For any boss that has waves of adds we will have severe problems b/c they will just run through the conc get maybe one tick and by that point healers will have more agro. The snap agro is needed to get them on you for a second and give conc a chance to do it's thing.

I would think the fact that our aoe threat is incredibly immobile would allow us to have the best aoe threat, but as was said earlier I think everyone assumed that we were fine and just haven't looked at it until we have a problem.
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Postby Jellypop » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:59 pm

what if.

consercration was mobile?

still doesn't help the snap aggro but certainly would give us more mobility.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:10 pm

Jellypop wrote:what if.

consercration was mobile?

still doesn't help the snap aggro but certainly would give us more mobility.


I dunno, I don't think that'd be an improvement on the whole. I can think of a number of occasions where I don't want Consecration to follow me. A few that come to mind offhand:

-- slimes before Patchwerk
-- kiting during Gluth
-- dropping it where you know adds are going to spawn and then moving elsewhere to pick something else up/get in a better position.
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Postby cordelia » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:10 pm

Is it really that hard to AS 3 mobs, and HotR the other 3 that aren't dazed?

Honestly, I have very very little problems with snap threat. Between AS, Judgement, HotR, Consecration, Holy Shield, HoR, RD, and even SoL threat, I don't have many issues, really. Try tanking Sarth +3d adds. No Holy Wrath, No Exorcism. It's a challenge, certainly, but nothing a good paladin can't handle.
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Postby majiben » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:15 pm

That requires a lot of variables to be just right and also doesn't solve our mobility issue.
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Postby Laz » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:30 pm

cordelia wrote:Is it really that hard to AS 3 mobs, and HotR the other 3 that aren't dazed?

Honestly, I have very very little problems with snap threat. Between AS, Judgement, HotR, Consecration, Holy Shield, HoR, RD, and even SoL threat, I don't have many issues, really. Try tanking Sarth +3d adds. No Holy Wrath, No Exorcism. It's a challenge, certainly, but nothing a good paladin can't handle.

I agree with you completely, Cordelia.

Also, you can taunt 3 of them if they're after a healer (RF healing ftw).
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Postby Markoh » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:40 pm

cordelia wrote:Is it really that hard to AS 3 mobs, and HotR the other 3 that aren't dazed?

Honestly, I have very very little problems with snap threat. Between AS, Judgement, HotR, Consecration, Holy Shield, HoR, RD, and even SoL threat, I don't have many issues, really. Try tanking Sarth +3d adds. No Holy Wrath, No Exorcism. It's a challenge, certainly, but nothing a good paladin can't handle.


My concern isn't for current content, its for future content. I'm just envisioning some kind of muru like encounter where the adds can and will one shot healers if you let them get hit.

I don't think asking for a snap agro tool is unreasonable. Making holy wrath able to hit all targets isn't op at all. Removal of the stun would be required to not make it op in pvp, and wouldn't effect us at all b/c almost every boss and most trash are immune to stuns as it is.
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Postby Strendarr » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:40 pm

Majiben wrote:Add a link to the thread.

I personally favor HW being usable on all mob types much like the change to exorcism and having the stun only work on evil mobs.

You should also bring up the following:
Our mitigation on AOE is roughly the third worse (Assuming frost fever can be AoE spread).
Our TPS not tops (I haven't studied it's exact ranking lately)
Our Snap threat on AoE packs (not small packs but true aoe situations) is the worst
Our ability to move and reposition is dreadful And the worst.

It's not to say that we are without hope it's just that we are disadvantaged in this area and we were so used to being the kings of AOE in TBC that we didn't think to check again in the wotlk beta.


sorry, here's the link

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15207815888&sid=1
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Postby Strendarr » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:51 pm

I'm actually pretty dissapointed with how the discussion has gone on the official forums, mainly other classes bitching about paladins. I'm dissapointed by the Paladins who have posted against it on there though, they deserve a slap in the face.
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