Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis - WotLK/3.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Florisia » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:02 am

theckhd wrote:I never actually intended to imply that Berserking was a good choice for tanking. It's mostly on the list for nostalgic reasons - around the first time I was doing the first version of the MATLAB code, there was a tank who swore by the Berserking enchant because of its great threat generation. I've long since forgotten the name, but I put Berserking on the list for the simulation just to see how much of a difference it made, and never took it off.



Ah. I figured it wasn't that wise of a choice. I saw you specifically mentioned the other two enchants over Berserking, so I didn't personally think it was worth it to get Berserking as a tank.

Back to the ol' drawing board. :P

halabar wrote:(My healer noted I was taking more damage, but I also wasn't going oom and loosing threat as a result).


WATERBOYsh wrote: I don't understand how people go oom in heroics.


The problem with heroics is that the better you get at avoidance + Block and Block Value, the worse you are with mana restoral. SA is a fairly decent factor in our mana regen, even at 1/2. The more you avoid, the less you need to be healed, the less mana you have, and the less threat you will generate once you hit the 'OOM' mark, the more the healer will need to heal someone else and the bigger noobtank people will think you are. :P Most people should be able to get by with Divine Plea if they don't use Consecrate in their rotation on most heroics(Outside of VH. Grr.), but most people also use Consecrate as a crutch for their tanking, complicating that a bit. There's also tanks who are not using Judgement of Wisdom, and use something like Judgement of Justice or Light instead, which severely hurts their mana.

Divine Plea + Judgement of Wisdom(especially with reckoning) + Skipping every other Consecration seems to be enough to sustain my mana in the worst of times. I have a bit of a problem with VH, because my Divine Plea always manages to fall off in between pulls. Other than VH, it seems alright.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Soranthalas » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:33 am

Knaughty wrote:
Soldierxx wrote:theckhd, why do you have 2 points in SA in your armory? I thought only one was needed.

Vezaxx hard-mode is very painful with 1/2 SA. Even more so if you're making heavy use of Disc priests, which are very OP at this encounter - I've spent 30+ seconds at full health + OOM (had to deliberately soak a surge with no CDs to recover). I've done it with both 1/2 and 2/2, the difference is huge, much easier with 2/2.


Extremely. I tanked him for the first time this week and I only used consecrate once at the beginning of the fight. Just couldn't afford it with 1SA.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Candiru » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:41 am

Yeah, on Vezax speccing into 2/2 SA is the best threat increase for 1 talent point you can get.

I blame people realising that disc priests are imba on that fight, so you get absorbs and shields all the time and take hardly any damage :(
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Dantriges » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:32 am

Stood there in Vezax 10 with a disc priest. Was such a pain. Logged on my dk twink because it sucked.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:42 pm

Just as an FYI, I'll be on vacation next week, and may not have internet access. So I won't be reading the forum or private messages until the 23rd.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby DisRuptive1 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 pm

I would really like to see the difference between stacking dodge and stacking agility. Something tells me that the time to live (or die) would be the same in both scenarios.

A fellow tank loves all the extra dodge percentage he's getting by stacking dodge rating but I think it's easier on my healers to stack agility. Although I get hit more often, I mitigate more and it's easier to heal me if I'm taking damage consistently. Plus with less dodge rating, a large portion of my gear/gem itemization isn't being eaten up by diminishing returns.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Dantriges » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:10 am

Hm I wonder if that tiny amount ofarmor would be really noticeable but it´s probably the same if you socket dodge instead. Atm I am in the gem for parry area anywys.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Thalastor82 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:31 am

DisRuptive1 wrote:I would really like to see the difference between stacking dodge and stacking agility. Something tells me that the time to live (or die) would be the same in both scenarios.

A fellow tank loves all the extra dodge percentage he's getting by stacking dodge rating but I think it's easier on my healers to stack agility. Although I get hit more often, I mitigate more and it's easier to heal me if I'm taking damage consistently. Plus with less dodge rating, a large portion of my gear/gem itemization isn't being eaten up by diminishing returns.


Dodge deriving from Agi and dodge rating goes in the same DR batch right? If it is so, picking Agi instead of dodge rating would "waste" less points in DR juste because dodge% will be lower, which doesn't seem to be a good strategy, IMO

I wonder at which point will be more useful (avoidance-wise speaking) to gem parry instead of agi/dodge with the new DR calculation for these stats.
It's worth considering, on top of DR calculations, that the speed increase coming for parry could work as a nice TPS boost with the new SoV. Hard to calculate and to compare with the TPS coming from increase crit from Agi, though.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Dagem » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:44 am

First of all Theck and co. I'd like to say that I really appreciate the work you guys are doing here. For that matter anyone who puts anything of any value on this site I'd like to thank. You guys are the reason I can tank worth a damn.

Hey since no one said anything about it that I've seen yet, the new Righteous Fury Change looks a little something like this.

Righteous Fury: The bonus threat from Holy spells caused by this talent has been reduced from 90% to 80%.


I did some quick napkin math before I went to bed and it looks like we're going to lose ~5% TPS from this change(Assumes 25/75 white/holy damage). I could totally be wrong here considering I haven't had some sleep in the last 20 hours or so though. Not posting the math I did cause I'm about to pass out and I figure you will probably have it up before I get home from work tomorrow anyways.


Another change I'd love you guys to take a look at, which I'm a little less capable of napkin mathing is the TbtL change:

Touched by the Light: This talent now provides 20/40/60% of the paladin’s strength as spell power instead of 10/20/30% of the paladin’s stamina.


Thanks a bunch in advance.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Awyndel » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:46 am

Think it's gonna be closer to 4% or lower considering the 1.46 ( is that correct? ) multiplier also.

I am more worried about the stat change. First of all it's completely idiotic logic to give us ap and sp from 1 stat, and make our spells scale with both, instead of just giving us ap and ap scaling spells. Secondly I think I will lose a few hundred sp in the process.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Florisia » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:00 am

I'm also a bit irked by this change of stats. Not that I particular have a problem with the concept of gaining spellpower from strength. I just hope they increase strength on some tank gear as a result of this. I'm losing about 270 spellpower from this change(I'm at about 3k stamina, 1kish strength), and I'm already struggling a bit with my threat with my regular crew as they're gearing up higher and higher. :/

I'd be rather amused if they gave us an armor modifier for spellpower, similar to one of the warrior/DK talents . X amount of armor == Y Spellpower, but I doubt they'd do it. I just don't want to have to gem regem for strength-stamina and stamina gems to make sure I can keep enough threat when I do finally get raiding, and make sure that threat doesn't kill me. :/
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby majiben » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:32 am

Well you're in very, very low str gear. And after raid buffs your losses will be ~150 SP rather than your unbuffed losses of ~200 sp. I really Can't begin to stress how low in str your current gear is. As your gear's ilvl improves your losses will get smaller and smaller.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Jonesy » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:19 pm

My hunch is that "white threat" stats like expertise, hit and ArP are more relatively valuable to strength in a 3.2.2 world than they are in 3.2, even with the str->sp conversion. Could you redo your statweights with that in mind to confirm or deny my hunch?

If you aren't going to get the chance before you go on holiday give me a poke and I'll learn enough matlab to do it myself.

Also this stopped being a "Jonesy derivative" work a long time ago, I'd say, feel free to regard it and to publicise it as your own. Thanks for all the great numerical and presentational work you've done. :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby tlitp » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:34 am

Dagem wrote:I did some quick napkin math before I went to bed and it looks like we're going to lose ~5% TPS from this change

rotation : 969
seals : SoV
glyphs : V only
talents : various
gear : theck

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3.2.0_experimental

Image
3.2.2_ptr_experimental

- 4-5% loss of (excess) threat
- the relative value of Reckoning increases slightly


Jonesy wrote:My hunch is that "white threat" stats like expertise, hit and ArP are more relatively valuable to strength in a 3.2.2 world than they are in 3.2, even with the str->sp conversion.

rotation : 969
seals : SoV
glyphs : V only
talents : 1V+3C
gear : theck

Image
3.2.0_experimental

Image
3.2.2_ptr_experimental

- strength's relative value slightly increases
- BV's relative value slightly decreases



oh, and stamina is no longer a threat stat... you didn't see this one coming, did you ? :lol:
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Awyndel » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:51 am

Woaw, nice quick work. Could we have the 1 stat values for comparing gear pieces plz?
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