Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis - WotLK/3.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:55 pm

I may be reading this incorrectly, but it looks like if you're in a gear situation like mine (32 expertise, with glyph), using Shiver, that swapping out to Sorthalis actually ends up being a threat loss. The additional expertise is very low value, and the hit lost is very high value. I could be mistaken, but the gearset used has much lower expertise than I (human helps, too) have through accident of gearing.

It's largely academic, my threat suit has somewhat less expertise and more hit, and uses Sorthalis, and my EH suit will use Shiver just for the extra stam and hit regardless.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Soldierxx » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:50 pm

theckhd, why do you have 2 points in SA in your armory? I thought only one was needed.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby badgermonkey » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:59 pm

Soldierxx wrote:theckhd, why do you have 2 points in SA in your armory? I thought only one was needed.


Until recently, I still had 2, for both Vezax, and for heroics. In heroics even with Divine Plea up I find I'm dropping in mana because I'm not needed to be healed.

Either of those 2 situations is likely to be the reason.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby knaughty » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:18 pm

Soldierxx wrote:theckhd, why do you have 2 points in SA in your armory? I thought only one was needed.

Vezaxx hard-mode is very painful with 1/2 SA. Even more so if you're making heavy use of Disc priests, which are very OP at this encounter - I've spent 30+ seconds at full health + OOM (had to deliberately soak a surge with no CDs to recover). I've done it with both 1/2 and 2/2, the difference is huge, much easier with 2/2.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:20 pm

Meloree wrote:I may be reading this incorrectly, but it looks like if you're in a gear situation like mine (32 expertise, with glyph), using Shiver, that swapping out to Sorthalis actually ends up being a threat loss. The additional expertise is very low value, and the hit lost is very high value. I could be mistaken, but the gearset used has much lower expertise than I (human helps, too) have through accident of gearing.

It's largely academic, my threat suit has somewhat less expertise and more hit, and uses Sorthalis, and my EH suit will use Shiver just for the extra stam and hit regardless.

It'd be close, but Sorthalis would still be ahead due to weapon DPS. From the weapon analysis post:
Code: Select all
                                    TPS       
Weapon                  ilvl   1V+3C  3R+1V+3C
Shiver                   232    7752    7832
Sorthalis                239    7819    7901 

The 32 expertise on Sorthalis is worth about 60 TPS if you're not soft-capped, and half that (30) if you are. Sorthalis is ahead by 67 TPS for the 1V+3C spec . So even for someone who's completely capped on expertise, Sorthalis would be an upgrade (though not much of one at 7 TPS). For someone who's soft-capped on expertise, Sorthalis will still come in 37 TPS ahead.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:29 pm

Soldierxx wrote:theckhd, why do you have 2 points in SA in your armory? I thought only one was needed.

And as others have correctly surmised, I was tanking Vezax hard mode with a disc priest last night in 25-man. I found that threat was more consistent with 2/2 SA and 2/3 Crusade, especially because I was able to use my full rotation (including Consecration) during the aggro-heavy animus burn.

Also, protip: alternate judgements between Animus and Vezax so that you keep the JotJ debuff on both, helps immensely with healer mana.

I was going to link the achievement here (we succeeded) but I couldn't find a good way to link to a specific one on the armory.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:18 am

theckhd wrote:
Soldierxx wrote:theckhd, why do you have 2 points in SA in your armory? I thought only one was needed.

And as others have correctly surmised, I was tanking Vezax hard mode with a disc priest last night in 25-man. I found that threat was more consistent with 2/2 SA and 2/3 Crusade, especially because I was able to use my full rotation (including Consecration) during the aggro-heavy animus burn.


If you're respeccing anyway, wouldn't it be better to drop Crusade, Conviction and PoJ completely and go full SotP? (don't need PoJ for Vezax) That is higher threat on Vezax, isn't it? Seeing as he's not a DUH mob.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Candiru » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:27 am

Yes, yes it would. (And that's exactly what I did last night to get our 10m Vezax hard mode kill)

Depends how often you want to respec though, if you were going Yogg+1 next, you might prefer crusade.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:43 am

Candiru wrote:Depends how often you want to respec though, if you were going Yogg+1 next, you might prefer crusade

This. I wanted to keep PoJ for Yogg as well. Threat on Vezax isn't usually much of a problem if you're proactive with cooldowns either, but our raid's DPS was low all night so I wanted them to be able to go all-out on the animus and not have to worry about threat. I seem to be geared exactly at the point where 2/2 SA keeps my mana bar full while tanking both Vezax and the animus, but 1/2 sometimes leads to mana starvation if I get a good string of avoidance.

In addition, I figured I'd run this spec for a few days in heroics and Ulduar just to see if I noticed the extra point in SA (or the missing point in Crusade). So far it's lackluster; I still run out of mana when I forget Divine Plea (or when it's down and unavailable due to quick-dying trash in heroics - why can't GbtL boost it to 30 seconds as well). The cases where I see mana starvation are usually things that hit too weakly, which SA doesn't help much with in the first place. Yes, you get twice as much back for the healing you do take, but twice a small number is still a small number.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Candiru » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:13 am

Seal of Wisdom for heroics tbh, SoV won't have much time to tick anyway.

One thing I was meaning to ask (or calculate) was AoE threat vs single target threat.

Now, lets pretend we are tanking 3 mobs. We have on mob A: HotR, ShoR, Consecration, SoV, JoV, Holy Shield, white attacks providing threat. In this case 1% crusade is ~=SoTP.

On Mobs B and C, however, assuming no tab targeting we have:
HotR, Consecration, SoV, Holy Shield.

This, presumably, means that SoV ticks and procs from HotR are a larger % of damage done that on mob A, and so the gap between SotP and crusade changes? of course in reality you will normally be tab targeting around, so this hypothetical situation is probably irrelevant anyway :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:21 am

Candiru wrote:Seal of Wisdom for heroics tbh, SoV won't have much time to tick anyway.

SoV doesn't have to tick to still be viable for threat, you get the free 10 expertise just by keeping it active. Also most trash pulls in heroics are multi-mob pulls, which leads very well into your next question...

One thing I was meaning to ask (or calculate) was AoE threat vs single target threat.

Now, lets pretend we are tanking 3 mobs. We have on mob A: HotR, ShoR, Consecration, SoV, JoV, Holy Shield, white attacks providing threat. In this case 1% crusade is ~=SoTP.

On Mobs B and C, however, assuming no tab targeting we have:
HotR, Consecration, SoV, Holy Shield.

This, presumably, means that SoV ticks and procs from HotR are a larger % of damage done that on mob A, and so the gap between SotP and crusade changes? of course in reality you will normally be tab targeting around, so this hypothetical situation is probably irrelevant anyway :)

I would guess that the answer depends heavily on your play style and how many mobs there are.
  • If it's only 3 mobs, and you're guaranteed to be getting HotR procs and SoV stacks on all of them, then I'd guess that SotP pulls ahead.
  • If you're tab-targeting, then you have melee attacks/Judgement/ShoR to consider too, at which point it's probably a wash.
  • If you're tanking 4-5 mobs, you're only guaranteed to get Consecration and Holy Shield, with some incidental aggro from stray SoV ticks or HotR bounces. I'd guess that again, it would be a close call unless you were tab-targeting.
  • On 6+ mobs, even with tab-targeting you're not going to be spreading 5-stacks to everything. You'll likely get some stray SoV ticks and HotR bounces here and there, but Consecration and Holy Shield are doing most of your grunt work now. At that point I'd guess that Crusade wins.

Note also that this is only for "no-DUH" mobs, on a DUH mob Crusade should win no matter what the situation.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Florisia » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:16 pm

I've switched from Crusade 3/3 to SA 2/2 and Crusade 2/3 myself, for mana starvation problems in the content I ususally run. Before doing that, though, I had a bit of a threat issue, and seeing the enchant options, I had a(Probably obvious) question about the enchants you had listed.

Do people actually use berserker for their TPS enchant? I mean, I see the clear TPS value of it, but taking the 5% blow to armor seems like tankicide. Not total tankicide, but it seems kinda like a counter intuitive thing to do. You specifically mention two others as the highest TPS enchants, though, so I think I know the answer. I was wondering, in case it would be worth it to snag a secondary weapon and throw berserking on it.

The main reason I ask is because I'm looking for alternative ways to increase my threat generated. I'm following 969 like a good tankadin, using the Seal of Vengeance(Glyphed), even picked up the Dragonfin Filet and used a DPS pot(I suddenly can't remember the name. I'll look it up once I can). There's a mage I was in a raid with once that COMPLETELY out-threated me in OS10+1D while I was OTing. I normally don't have threat issues with most of the people I roll with, but it was just embarassing. Especially when the drake turned around and nuked my rogue friend who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And in case I get a question regarding my armory as well:
I swithced to 3/5 Reckoning from 3/5 Divinity, in an attempt to sacrifice survivbility for additional threat gen(And benefits from Judgements). Just trying it out, not sure if I'll keep it.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby halabar » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:51 pm

Right now I'm running 10-mans (Uld and Col) and of course farming heroics. After going through the math here, and having Theck answer a few questions for me, I went with a 2/2 SA 2/3 Crusade, and 3/5 Rec instead of the DS/DG/Div options, and I certainly see the difference in threat, and in mana return. Going 2/2 SA seems to allow me to use SoV instead of SoW in heroics in most cases (My healer noted I was taking more damage, but I also wasn't going oom and loosing threat as a result).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Arees » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:01 pm

I don't understand how people go oom in heroics.... I use SoV and I still am able to consecrate on cd, and keep a full threat rotation going and I'm never below 60% mana.

What do you mean your healers noticed you taking more dmg? Neither SA or Crusade would have anything to do with that...
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:10 pm

Florisia wrote:I've switched from Crusade 3/3 to SA 2/2 and Crusade 2/3 myself, for mana starvation problems in the content I ususally run. Before doing that, though, I had a bit of a threat issue, and seeing the enchant options, I had a(Probably obvious) question about the enchants you had listed.

Do people actually use berserker for their TPS enchant? I mean, I see the clear TPS value of it, but taking the 5% blow to armor seems like tankicide. Not total tankicide, but it seems kinda like a counter intuitive thing to do. You specifically mention two others as the highest TPS enchants, though, so I think I know the answer. I was wondering, in case it would be worth it to snag a secondary weapon and throw berserking on it.

I never actually intended to imply that Berserking was a good choice for tanking. It's mostly on the list for nostalgic reasons - around the first time I was doing the first version of the MATLAB code, there was a tank who swore by the Berserking enchant because of its great threat generation. I've long since forgotten the name, but I put Berserking on the list for the simulation just to see how much of a difference it made, and never took it off.

Florisia wrote:The main reason I ask is because I'm looking for alternative ways to increase my threat generated. I'm following 969 like a good tankadin, using the Seal of Vengeance(Glyphed), even picked up the Dragonfin Filet and used a DPS pot(I suddenly can't remember the name. I'll look it up once I can). There's a mage I was in a raid with once that COMPLETELY out-threated me in OS10+1D while I was OTing. I normally don't have threat issues with most of the people I roll with, but it was just embarassing. Especially when the drake turned around and nuked my rogue friend who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And in case I get a question regarding my armory as well:
I swithced to 3/5 Reckoning from 3/5 Divinity, in an attempt to sacrifice survivbility for additional threat gen(And benefits from Judgements). Just trying it out, not sure if I'll keep it.

It's hard to tell from just an anecdote whether your threat issues are real or perceived. The mage may have outgeared you by a tier or two, or may have had a few unlucky crits on the pull in combination with a few unlucky misses on your part.

Looking at your armory, it could be either of these. Your gear's around T7-level on average (thus low on STR at ~900), but your weapon is fairly low DPS, and your hit is only around 123 (3.75%). A mage in full T8 level gear will be able to rip aggro off of you without too much effort, unfortunately. It's an occupational hazard of being a tank; sometimes the DPS will outgear you and you have to find creative ways to keep up.

In your case, the weakest point is definitely the weapon. 143 dps is really low, and you'll see a huge threat upgrade from moving to one of the Naxx or Ulduar weapons. Even the Peacekeeper Blade from herioc ToC would be a decent threat upgrade. Broken Promise would be a great one if you can grab it from Naxx25 - most players won't be aware that it's the second-best pre-Coliseum threat weapon for paladins, so you might be able to nab it without much competition. A Broken Promise with the Accuracy enchant would give you a noticeable boost in threat.

As a second-best option, try and swap gear around to increase your hit rating or STR, if you can.
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