Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis  WotLK/3.x
Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
I have been playing with talent calculators this morning
15 Seals of the Pure
12 Vindication
15 Conviction
To take Spiritual Attunement or not  or 1 vs. 2 points...
Or what about a nice Lay of Hands build  20% damage reduction is nice...
Man, Theck  stop being busy and give some conclusions
15 Seals of the Pure
12 Vindication
15 Conviction
To take Spiritual Attunement or not  or 1 vs. 2 points...
Or what about a nice Lay of Hands build  20% damage reduction is nice...
Man, Theck  stop being busy and give some conclusions
 Oldpappa
 Posts: 46
 Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 9:40 am
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
The conclusion is already there, look through the thread. 53/18 is the best for the new instance due to Crusade being 6% on all the mobs there, where as SoTP specs are better for Ulduar. Never take 2 points in SA, that would not change with the patch. You should probably also always want 2/2 vindication  its in my opinion as mandatory as thunderjudge.
 Minarva
 Posts: 123
 Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:58 pm
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
I can't veiw and wowhead links (or much else for that matter) at work, but im assuming 53/18 spec has 2 vintication, 3 conviction, 3 crusade.

NYRIN1  Posts: 99
 Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:21 am
 Location: Miami
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
Nyrin1 wrote:I can't veiw and wowhead links (or much else for that matter) at work, but im assuming 53/18 spec has 2 vintication, 3 conviction, 3 crusade.
Or 2 Vindication, 2 PoJ, 1 Conviction, 3 Crusade. There are a couple other variations as well.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7750
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
Before starting in with the simulations, I'd like to bring everyone up to speed on the current state of the code. I've made a lot of changes in the past week, the majority of it thanks to someone who offered to proofread my code and do most of the legwork of checking it against the latest information from EJ. Most of the changes are simple bugfixes, but there are a few noticeable improvements/additions:
Anyway, while the contributor would like to remain anonymous, their help has been greatly appreciated.
 The avoidance code now works properly, incorporating the DR formulas found in avoid_dr.m. This means that the code will properly calculate all avoidance percentages as well as block percent, which makes the Holy Shield DPS calculations more accurate. This also means that I can start looking into serious survival simulations in the future, for example to compare agility against pure dodge rating.
 The effects of parry haste have been implemented for both boss and player.
 Player base stats have been updated for 3.2
 Several buffs that had been previously overlooked/ignored have been added to buffs_debuffs.m. These include:
 Winter's Chill
 Arcane Intellect
 Moonkin Aura
 Thorns
 Retribution Aura
 Blessing of Sanctuary
 Divine Plea
 Replenishment
 Bloodlust (disabled by default)
 Insect Swarm
 Avenging Wrath support is coming soon as well.
 Code has been added to help support mana recovery mechanisms, though this is still a work in progress.
 The code has been cleaned up a little bit  in particular, a lot of things that were "bolted on" to the ability_recalc module have now properly been consolidated into the stats_recalc module.
Anyway, while the contributor would like to remain anonymous, their help has been greatly appreciated.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7750
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
Survival simulations...
Awesome work on the code guys, looks impressive. Good to know its been rechecked to see if its up to date etc. I know how much work that can be.
Awesome work on the code guys, looks impressive. Good to know its been rechecked to see if its up to date etc. I know how much work that can be.

Awyndel  Posts: 672
 Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
 Location: The Netherlands
Patch 3.2  Paladin Ability Damage/DPS/Threat/TPS Breakdown
Patch 3.2  Paladin Ability Damage/DPS/Threat/TPS Breakdown
As always, the first simulation we post is the one that gives us the damage values for each ability. The gear set we'll be using as "default" for starting the Crusader's Coliseum raid instance (CC from here on) will be an updated version of my WTF Double Vanq again?? gear set. Here's the exact loadout:
Head: Helm of the Faceless
Neck: Shard of the Crystal Forest
Shoulder: Shoulderplates of the Deconstructor
Back: Cloak of the Makers
Chest: Conqueror's Aegis Breastplate
Bracers: Mimiron's Inferno Couplings
Gloves: Conqueror's Aegis Handguards
Belt: Indestructible Plate Girdle
Legs: Saronite Plated Legguards
Boots: Spiked Deathdealers
Rings: Platinum Band of the Aesir and The Leviathan's Coil
Trinkets: Heart of Iron and Royal Seal of King Llane
Weapon: Shiver (Accuracy)
Shield: The Boreal Guard
Libram: Libram of Obstruction
All gem slots are filled with epic gems. 30 Stam for blue/prismatic, 10 Agi / 15 Stam for red, and 10 Def / 15 Stam for yellow. I realize these may not be optimal choices in all cases (i.e. Boreal Guard should probably get two blue gems), but I stuck with them for consistency. The difference in threat should be small enough that swapping gems isn't going to change the outcome anyway.
The relevant threat stats are as follows:
Setup
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only, VJ and VA for glyphed Judgement and AS calculations
Talents: 1V+3C build, on a "noDUH" mob type
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression Set, given above
File: calc_ability_dmg.m
Threat graph
Unsurprisingly, ShoR, Cons, and HotR are still our top 3 damage abilities, followed by Avenger's Shield (unglyphed), HoW, and JoV (unglyphed). Glyphing AS boosts it to our highestdamage ability, while glyphing Judgement doesn't quite catch it up to HoW. Nothing changes on the threat graph, outside of the relative value of a melee attack.
Now that Exorcism is gone, our options for substitution rotations are nearly nonexistent. We gain nothing by substituting anything but glyphed AS for our top damage abilities (ShoR, Cons, HotR). Judgement is still the weak link, and we gain around 300 damage by substituting either unglyphed AS or HoW for it. That's about it as far as options go, though.
Next, let's look at DPS and TPS.
DPS/TPS
To plot each ability's DPS and TPS contributions, we divide by the cooldown for a realistic 969 scenario. For ShoR, HotR, Consecration, and Judgement this is easy: just divide by 6 or 9 depending on what slot it fills in the rotation. Since HoW would be a net threat loss if used in place of one of our 6second cooldowns, it gets treated as a 9second cooldown for this plot. For Avenger's Shield, we divide by 36, since the most likely way to weave it in is to substitute for a 9second ability every 4th rotation.
Melee swings get divided by the player's raidbuffed swing speed (which for a 1.6 speed weapon comes out to 1.32 seconds in the absence of Reckoning). The SoV proc gets divided by the proc rate, which is calculated to include procs from melee attacks, Judgements, and HotR. This works out to
(1/1.32 + 1/6 + 1/9)^(1)=0.95.
The first term is the contribution from melee swings, the second from HotR, and the third from Judgements.
Holy Shield gets multiplied by its average procs per second, which is a slightly more complicated function:
This works out to whichever's smaller:
Nothing terribly amazing here, but it's worth noting that the SoV 5stack proc is now a huge component of our threat. Thanks to the fact that it procs off of melee attacks, HotR, and Judgement, we're getting a proc every 0.95 seconds or so. As a result, it's actually causing more raw threat than the DoT component. This will have ramifications for the stat analysis, since it gives us extra incentive to connect with our attacks.
Talent comparison coming up later this afternoon, hopefully.
As always, the first simulation we post is the one that gives us the damage values for each ability. The gear set we'll be using as "default" for starting the Crusader's Coliseum raid instance (CC from here on) will be an updated version of my WTF Double Vanq again?? gear set. Here's the exact loadout:
Head: Helm of the Faceless
Neck: Shard of the Crystal Forest
Shoulder: Shoulderplates of the Deconstructor
Back: Cloak of the Makers
Chest: Conqueror's Aegis Breastplate
Bracers: Mimiron's Inferno Couplings
Gloves: Conqueror's Aegis Handguards
Belt: Indestructible Plate Girdle
Legs: Saronite Plated Legguards
Boots: Spiked Deathdealers
Rings: Platinum Band of the Aesir and The Leviathan's Coil
Trinkets: Heart of Iron and Royal Seal of King Llane
Weapon: Shiver (Accuracy)
Shield: The Boreal Guard
Libram: Libram of Obstruction
All gem slots are filled with epic gems. 30 Stam for blue/prismatic, 10 Agi / 15 Stam for red, and 10 Def / 15 Stam for yellow. I realize these may not be optimal choices in all cases (i.e. Boreal Guard should probably get two blue gems), but I stuck with them for consistency. The difference in threat should be small enough that swapping gems isn't going to change the outcome anyway.
The relevant threat stats are as follows:
 Code: Select all
STR 1027
STA 2304
AGI 82
Hit Rating 209
Crit Rating 25
Exp Rating 42
BV 643
Setup
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only, VJ and VA for glyphed Judgement and AS calculations
Talents: 1V+3C build, on a "noDUH" mob type
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression Set, given above
File: calc_ability_dmg.m
 Code: Select all
Ability Damage Glyphed Threat Glyphed
ShoR 3984 0 11041 0
HotR 2950 0 8175 0
Cons 3437 0 9525 0
JoV 2264 2490 6274 6901
AS 2562 5124 7100 14200
HoW 2525 0 6998 0
SoV 435 0 1206 0
VDoT 4810 0 13330 0
HS 933 0 2586 0
Melee 697 0 1017 0
Threat graph
Unsurprisingly, ShoR, Cons, and HotR are still our top 3 damage abilities, followed by Avenger's Shield (unglyphed), HoW, and JoV (unglyphed). Glyphing AS boosts it to our highestdamage ability, while glyphing Judgement doesn't quite catch it up to HoW. Nothing changes on the threat graph, outside of the relative value of a melee attack.
Now that Exorcism is gone, our options for substitution rotations are nearly nonexistent. We gain nothing by substituting anything but glyphed AS for our top damage abilities (ShoR, Cons, HotR). Judgement is still the weak link, and we gain around 300 damage by substituting either unglyphed AS or HoW for it. That's about it as far as options go, though.
Next, let's look at DPS and TPS.
DPS/TPS
To plot each ability's DPS and TPS contributions, we divide by the cooldown for a realistic 969 scenario. For ShoR, HotR, Consecration, and Judgement this is easy: just divide by 6 or 9 depending on what slot it fills in the rotation. Since HoW would be a net threat loss if used in place of one of our 6second cooldowns, it gets treated as a 9second cooldown for this plot. For Avenger's Shield, we divide by 36, since the most likely way to weave it in is to substitute for a 9second ability every 4th rotation.
Melee swings get divided by the player's raidbuffed swing speed (which for a 1.6 speed weapon comes out to 1.32 seconds in the absence of Reckoning). The SoV proc gets divided by the proc rate, which is calculated to include procs from melee attacks, Judgements, and HotR. This works out to
(1/1.32 + 1/6 + 1/9)^(1)=0.95.
The first term is the contribution from melee swings, the second from HotR, and the third from Judgements.
Holy Shield gets multiplied by its average procs per second, which is a slightly more complicated function:
 Code: Select all
avg_HS_pps=min([8/9.*ones(size(boss_swing_speed)); (max([(player_block./100) 0])./boss_net_swing_speed)]);
This works out to whichever's smaller:
 8/9 (if all charges are used up, 8 procs every 9 seconds) or
 (player_block./100)./boss_net_swing_speed (chance to block divided by time between incoming attacks, assuming blockcapped).
 Code: Select all
Ability DPS Glyphed TPS Glyphed
ShoR 664 0 1840 0
HotR 492 0 1363 0
Cons 382 0 1058 0
JoV 252 277 697 767
AS 71 142 197 394
HoW 281 0 778 0
SoV 459 0 1273 0
VDoT 321 0 889 0
HS 149 0 414 0
Melee 736 0 1073 0
Nothing terribly amazing here, but it's worth noting that the SoV 5stack proc is now a huge component of our threat. Thanks to the fact that it procs off of melee attacks, HotR, and Judgement, we're getting a proc every 0.95 seconds or so. As a result, it's actually causing more raw threat than the DoT component. This will have ramifications for the stat analysis, since it gives us extra incentive to connect with our attacks.
Talent comparison coming up later this afternoon, hopefully.
Last edited by theckhd on Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7750
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
3.2 Talent Spec Analysis
Back to the talent analysis. Not a lot has changed here, so I'll mostly be repeating myself.
First, we'll look at the breakdown of TPS per talent point spent.
We simulate the DPS and TPS for each of these talent configs, and calculate the value of each talent point through simple subtraction and division:
For example, to evaluate Crusade, we subtract spec 3 from spec 4, and divide the result by 3 (the number of points in Crusade). Since OHWS and TBTL are so far ahead, we use those as the base spec with which to compare the other talents. There are really only two differences from previous analyses here:
Setup:
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only
Talents: Various, in combinations to isolate the benefit of each talent individually.
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression Set
File: calc_talent_analysis.m
The addition of a SoV 5stack proc to Judgement has tipped the scales in favor of SotP once again, letting it sneak ahead of Crusade by just over 1 TPS per point for "noDUH" mobs.
And just to reiterate what I said last time, the value of each point in Redoubt will decrease exactly the same way block value does in the region of diminishing returns, and will drop to 0 once you're above the ShoR block value cap. Keep in mind that dropping the talent might bring you back into the DR region again though.
The BV break points at which the points in Redoubt actually become useless for threat should be easily calculated. The cap is 3161 BV, so if you let B be the base block value break point when 1.2*B=3161, then the break point with 3/3 Redoubt is 1.3*B=1.3(3161/1.2). Thus:
If you have over 3434 block value with 3/3 Redoubt, you'll see no difference in threat between 2/3 and 3/3 Redoubt
If you have over 3448 block vlaue with 2/3 Redoubt (3736 with 3/3), you'll see no difference in threat between 1/3 and 2/3 Redoubt
If you have over 3477 block vlaue with 1/3 Redoubt (4109 with 3/3), you'll see no difference in threat between 0/3 and 1/3 Redoubt
Next we'll run through the talent spec comparison again.
Setup:
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only
Talents: Various combinations of SotP (S), Reckoning (R), Conviction (V), and Crusade (C)
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression Set
File: calc_talent_analysis.m
This first plot is sorted by "noDUH" TPS. The next two are unsorted (or sorted by tree, with Retheavy specs at the top and Holy at the bottom) and sorted by utility points, respectively:
As you can see, the difference between SotP and Crusade specs is small for a noDUH mob, with SotP having an edge, but Crusade dwarfs SotP for DUH mobs. To throw out some numbers, let's compare a 4/53/14 utility spec with a 0/53/18 that takes exactly the same utility talents in prot and ret. This means, for example, comparing 4S to 1V+3C. On a noDUH mob, the 4S spec is ahead by 25 TPS. But against a DUH mob, the Crusade spec is a whopping 206 TPS ahead. If you're going to spend any time fighting Humanoids or Undead (which is a good bet, given that we're in an expansion cycle that's fairly heavy on the Undeath), you'll probably find the Crusade spec giving you more bang for your buck.
On the other hand, if you're not going deep enough into Ret to pick up Vindication or PoJ, then you can do pretty well with Seals of the Pure and Reckoning. 5S+5R is fairly competitive with 1V+3C even on DUH mobs, and frees up some points for other Prot or Holy talents.
Unfortunately, anything with more than 4 points in SotP will mean skipping points in Vindication or PoJ, which will be a tough call for many players. People who aren't fond of PoJ right now may not mind, and could go with a 5/54/12 spec that still picks up Vindication. Diehard "let the dps warrior keep up Demo Shout" types could drop down to 6 in Ret and open up more of the Prot or Holy trees.
TLDR Summary:
First, we'll look at the breakdown of TPS per talent point spent.
We simulate the DPS and TPS for each of these talent configs, and calculate the value of each talent point through simple subtraction and division:
 no threat talents
 3/3 OneHanded Weapon Specialization (OHWS)
 OHWS + 3/3 Touched By The Light (TBTL)
 OHWS+TBTL + 3/3 Crusade
 OHWS+TBTL + 5/5 Conviction
 OHWS+TBTL + 5/5 Seals of the Pure (SotP)
 OHWS+TBTL + 5/5 Reckoning
 OHWS+TBTL + 0/5 Divine Strength
 OHWS+TBTL + 0/3 Redoubt
For example, to evaluate Crusade, we subtract spec 3 from spec 4, and divide the result by 3 (the number of points in Crusade). Since OHWS and TBTL are so far ahead, we use those as the base spec with which to compare the other talents. There are really only two differences from previous analyses here:
Setup:
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only
Talents: Various, in combinations to isolate the benefit of each talent individually.
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression Set
File: calc_talent_analysis.m
 Code: Select all
Talent DPS TPS (both per point)
Reck 13.2 25.4
Conv 19.2 46.9
Crus 30.8 78.7
SotP 28.8 79.8
Red 37.2 103.1
DivStr 41.7 106.3
TbtL 51.5 142.7
C(6%) 61.7 157.5
1HWS 88.8 225.6
The addition of a SoV 5stack proc to Judgement has tipped the scales in favor of SotP once again, letting it sneak ahead of Crusade by just over 1 TPS per point for "noDUH" mobs.
And just to reiterate what I said last time, the value of each point in Redoubt will decrease exactly the same way block value does in the region of diminishing returns, and will drop to 0 once you're above the ShoR block value cap. Keep in mind that dropping the talent might bring you back into the DR region again though.
The BV break points at which the points in Redoubt actually become useless for threat should be easily calculated. The cap is 3161 BV, so if you let B be the base block value break point when 1.2*B=3161, then the break point with 3/3 Redoubt is 1.3*B=1.3(3161/1.2). Thus:
If you have over 3434 block value with 3/3 Redoubt, you'll see no difference in threat between 2/3 and 3/3 Redoubt
If you have over 3448 block vlaue with 2/3 Redoubt (3736 with 3/3), you'll see no difference in threat between 1/3 and 2/3 Redoubt
If you have over 3477 block vlaue with 1/3 Redoubt (4109 with 3/3), you'll see no difference in threat between 0/3 and 1/3 Redoubt
Next we'll run through the talent spec comparison again.
Setup:
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only
Talents: Various combinations of SotP (S), Reckoning (R), Conviction (V), and Crusade (C)
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression Set
File: calc_talent_analysis.m
 Code: Select all
Spec DPS TPS TPS(e) Util
3S 3080 7907 7907 12
4S 3108 7983 7983 11
5S 3135 8058 8058 10
4S+3R 3146 8058 8058 8
5S+3R 3174 8135 8135 7
5S+5R 3199 8184 8184 5
5S+3R+1V 3194 8184 8184 7
5S+3R+3V 3234 8282 8282 5
5S+1V 3155 8107 8107 9
5S+3V 3194 8204 8204 7
5V 3094 7911 7911 10
1V+2C 3078 7880 8035 12
1V+3C 3108 7958 8189 11
3R+1V+3C 3146 8031 8265 8
3V+3C 3147 8053 8288 9
5V+3C 3187 8149 8386 7
3R+5V+3C 3226 8225 8465 4
5V+2C 3156 8070 8228 8
5V+3C1T 3141 8023 8257 8
This first plot is sorted by "noDUH" TPS. The next two are unsorted (or sorted by tree, with Retheavy specs at the top and Holy at the bottom) and sorted by utility points, respectively:
As you can see, the difference between SotP and Crusade specs is small for a noDUH mob, with SotP having an edge, but Crusade dwarfs SotP for DUH mobs. To throw out some numbers, let's compare a 4/53/14 utility spec with a 0/53/18 that takes exactly the same utility talents in prot and ret. This means, for example, comparing 4S to 1V+3C. On a noDUH mob, the 4S spec is ahead by 25 TPS. But against a DUH mob, the Crusade spec is a whopping 206 TPS ahead. If you're going to spend any time fighting Humanoids or Undead (which is a good bet, given that we're in an expansion cycle that's fairly heavy on the Undeath), you'll probably find the Crusade spec giving you more bang for your buck.
On the other hand, if you're not going deep enough into Ret to pick up Vindication or PoJ, then you can do pretty well with Seals of the Pure and Reckoning. 5S+5R is fairly competitive with 1V+3C even on DUH mobs, and frees up some points for other Prot or Holy talents.
Unfortunately, anything with more than 4 points in SotP will mean skipping points in Vindication or PoJ, which will be a tough call for many players. People who aren't fond of PoJ right now may not mind, and could go with a 5/54/12 spec that still picks up Vindication. Diehard "let the dps warrior keep up Demo Shout" types could drop down to 6 in Ret and open up more of the Prot or Holy trees.
TLDR Summary:
 It's a good time to be a paladin, threat will be strong no matter which way you go (SotP or Crusade).
 0/53/18 providesthe highest threat potential on DUH mobs, with or without Reckoning.
 For noDUH mobs, specs with 5/5 SotP and 5/5 Reckoning are very strong, and will still be decent for DUH mobs (though about 200 TPS behind).
 As a general rule of thumb for maximizing threat, fill points in the following order:
 OHWS, Divine Strength, and TbtL before anything else.
 For DUH mobs, Crusade > SotP > Conviction > Reckoning
 For nonDUH mobs, SotP > Crusade > Conviction > Reckoning.
Last edited by theckhd on Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7750
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
theckhd wrote:http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f64/42643judgementlight308a.htmlGhostcrawler wrote:One of the changes in 3.0.8 that we may or may not have announced is that we changed Judgment of Light to do no threat in order to fix some of this seemingly random behavior. We aren't trying to nerf Prot paladin threat overall with this change.
The topic came up again recently when Protadin OTs were accidentally pulling off the MT with huge threat spikes while tanking adds etc.
By the way, since 3.2 is coming out today, I'll be posting the finalized 3.2 calculations throughout the day. Unfortunately, I'll be really busy today as well, so it may take until later this afternoon or evening to get all of the important ones up.
As an additional note. Testing I did yesterday (prior to 3.2 obviously) indicated that the following do NOT cause threat:
JoW mana procs
BoSanc mana procs
SoW mana procs
SA mana procs
As far as I could see, none of them were returning threat, at least according to the ingame threat API functions. I sent you a PM on the matter Theck, incase you were interested. I will try to retest for 3.2 sometime this week for verification.
Mind you those findings are different for when I tested right after WotLK came out. Back then, they were providing 0.5 threat unmodified per mana gained, but somewhere between then and now (I am guessing when JoL got changed), they stopped providing threat.

jere  Posts: 2957
 Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
jere wrote:As far as I could see, none of them were returning threat, at least according to the ingame threat API functions. I sent you a PM on the matter Theck, incase you were interested. I will try to retest for 3.2 sometime this week for verification.
Yeah, I saw that message. The question arose when the mana regen mechanics were added to the code. Which is a moot point due to your findings, it seems.
Also, interesting note: Retribution Aura (Improved) is worth 52 DPS (144 TPS), and Thorns is worth 34 DPS (49 TPS), according to the code. So the presence or absence of Thorns is worth almost two points in Reckoning.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7750
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
Is that accounting for the "extra threat" they were supposed to have baked into it? Back when they announced the Retribution Aura change, they mentioned giving it an extra threat modifier. I honestly forgot to test it though while on the PTR.

jere  Posts: 2957
 Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
jere wrote:Is that accounting for the "extra threat" they were supposed to have baked into it? Back when they announced the Retribution Aura change, they mentioned giving it an extra threat modifier. I honestly forgot to test it though while on the PTR.
No, that was just the standard Holy modifier I used. Apparently the threat modifier was just a factor of 2, so it should be double what I posted.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
 Posts: 7750
 Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
 Location: Harrisburg, PA
Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)
theckhd, are you assigning the Judgement and HotR the extra threat from the resulting SoV proc? It wasn't clear from your post if you were. If you aren't adding them already, then that would push HoW back to only be worth replacing HolyShield with.
 Candiru
 Posts: 2479
 Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm
3.2 Stat Threat Analysis
Now that we've reviewed abilities and specs, let's take a look at how stats will affect our threat in 3.2.
I've made some slight changes to how I calculate the contributions. In the past I added 1 or 10 ipoints worth of each stat to calculate the bonus. However, recent corrections to the code broke this technique; in particular, the fact that stats get rounded multiple times lead to stepwise features on the graph. To fix this, I'm now adding particular amounts of each stat that work out to whole integers in the end:
STR: 100./DivStr
STA: 100
AGI: 10./BoK
AP: 10./UnRage
BV: 1./(Redoubt + BV_Meta)
Everything else is just one point worth
In the end, the plots look the way they did in the past; this is just one of those "under the hood" details that I thought a few others might be interested in.
Setup:
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only
Talents: 1V+3C
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression set
File: calc_stat_tps.m
As usual, we'll look at STR first. For a point of reference, I have around 1300 STR on my character sheet, so that's about the level of an Ulduar geared tank.
DPS plot
For those who have been following this thread, this should look familiar. STR is still tops, followed closely by BV, then Hit and Expertise. Expertise gained some ground thanks to the SoV proc, and BV gained ground due to blizzard halving it's itemization budget.
Also note that since this gear set is well below the region of diminishing returns on ShoR, we don't see the DR on STR. We'll get to see this later in the BV plot though.
Next we'll look at hit.
DPS plot
Again, nothing surprising here. Hit drops off when you reach the melee and spell hit caps. Everything else is pretty much the same, with slight scaling of damageincreasing stats until you reach the appropriate caps.
Expertise:
DPS plot
Pretty much identical to the Hit graph, expertise loses effectiveness when you hit the soft and hard caps, and damageincreasing stats scale differently above and below those caps.
Block Value:
DPS plot
Here we see the effects of the ShoR diminishing returns formula. Copying and Pasting from last time:
Again, nothing really special in these plots. We see BV and STR drop in value as we reach the ShoR cap, just like last time.
I've made some slight changes to how I calculate the contributions. In the past I added 1 or 10 ipoints worth of each stat to calculate the bonus. However, recent corrections to the code broke this technique; in particular, the fact that stats get rounded multiple times lead to stepwise features on the graph. To fix this, I'm now adding particular amounts of each stat that work out to whole integers in the end:
STR: 100./DivStr
STA: 100
AGI: 10./BoK
AP: 10./UnRage
BV: 1./(Redoubt + BV_Meta)
Everything else is just one point worth
In the end, the plots look the way they did in the past; this is just one of those "under the hood" details that I thought a few others might be interested in.
Setup:
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V only
Talents: 1V+3C
Gear: Theck's 8.5 Progression set
File: calc_stat_tps.m
As usual, we'll look at STR first. For a point of reference, I have around 1300 STR on my character sheet, so that's about the level of an Ulduar geared tank.
DPS plot
For those who have been following this thread, this should look familiar. STR is still tops, followed closely by BV, then Hit and Expertise. Expertise gained some ground thanks to the SoV proc, and BV gained ground due to blizzard halving it's itemization budget.
Also note that since this gear set is well below the region of diminishing returns on ShoR, we don't see the DR on STR. We'll get to see this later in the BV plot though.
Next we'll look at hit.
DPS plot
Again, nothing surprising here. Hit drops off when you reach the melee and spell hit caps. Everything else is pretty much the same, with slight scaling of damageincreasing stats until you reach the appropriate caps.
Expertise:
DPS plot
Pretty much identical to the Hit graph, expertise loses effectiveness when you hit the soft and hard caps, and damageincreasing stats scale differently above and below those caps.
Block Value:
DPS plot
Here we see the effects of the ShoR diminishing returns formula. Copying and Pasting from last time:
Theck wrote:The discontinuity at 2400 is due to the piecewise nature of the function and the fact that I'm stepping by 3 BV at a time in this simulation. The TPS value of each point of BV decreases linearly as we get more BV, which is exactly what we'd expect since the diminishing returns formula is modeled best by a quadratic. By 3161 BV, we find that BV no longer contributes any threat.
Note also that this weakens STR as a threat stat, because its contribution to our BV is also no longer giving us threat. As a result, in highBV gear sets, hit rating actually becomes the best threat stat until the cap. The crossover point is around 2952 BV. In heavy avoidance gear sets, where we're below the 2400 BV mark, nothing's really changed from the previous round of simulations. Still, we'll probably want to avoid stacking BV for threat, and focus on a mix of STR and hit rating.
The simple bar plots are no longer so simple, since we have to decide where along the Block Value axis we want to be for the plots. It was easy to assume we're below both hit cap and expertise dodge cap, but assuming we have less than 2400 BV is less robust. Instead, I've calculated plots for three points: 2300, 2600, and 3200 BV.
Again, nothing really special in these plots. We see BV and STR drop in value as we reach the ShoR cap, just like last time.
Last edited by theckhd on Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

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