Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis  WotLK/3.x
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Recalculated these just to see if anything had changed significantly. Since the last time, the gear module has been updated to be more realistic, Libram of Obstruction uptime has been added, and several other things have changed. <edit> Armor Penetration has also been added. This is all with the 5/60/6 default build, 969, JS glyphs, etc.
The graphs don't look too strikingly dissimilar though. Expertise seems a little stronger than before for DPS, but is still weak for white damage. AP snuck ahead of BV for dps by a hair, but is still behind for TPS. Armor Penetration surprised me a bit, being better than Crit/AGI for DPS, but lagging behind Expertise. I was expecting it to be far worse, but keep in mind this isn't including Sunder/FF yet, so it might be overvaluing it. It's worse than Crit/AGI for TPS either way though.
Also keep in mind that these graphs are plotted vs. unbuffed character sheet STR, so the average endgame character should be between 1200 and 1400 on these plots.
The graphs don't look too strikingly dissimilar though. Expertise seems a little stronger than before for DPS, but is still weak for white damage. AP snuck ahead of BV for dps by a hair, but is still behind for TPS. Armor Penetration surprised me a bit, being better than Crit/AGI for DPS, but lagging behind Expertise. I was expecting it to be far worse, but keep in mind this isn't including Sunder/FF yet, so it might be overvaluing it. It's worse than Crit/AGI for TPS either way though.
Also keep in mind that these graphs are plotted vs. unbuffed character sheet STR, so the average endgame character should be between 1200 and 1400 on these plots.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd  Moderator
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Meloree wrote:This is offtopic, maybe, but all of this stuff is amazing, I'd just like to extend my thanks. This thread is making me a better tank.

Meloree, <Edge>, Garona
I would like to say thanks too. I'm good at the math required for programming and thinking about computational complexities, but my knowledge of statistics and how to model stuff like that is pretty slim.
I don't understand what most of the graphs are representing though or what they mean. I just see a bunch of lines with acronyms attached, and wait for someone to turn the results into english
yeah... anyway, keep up the awesome work.

Arees  Posts: 546
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Since the Seal of Righteousness glyph has been boosted to 30% on the PTR, there was some question as to whether this would change the results of the seal comparison. The answer is involved enough that it would take a considerable rework of that post, which might make the resulting discussion confusing, so instead I'm going to just repost the pertinent stuff.
Also worth noting that someone pointed out that I was using 22% weapon damage instead of 27% for SoB, so I fixed that, and this analysis includes LoO and all the more recent changes.
First of all, let's look at the numbers for reckoning again:
Reckoning
First, the base numbers:
Here we notice a subtle difference  SoR with Reckoning now beats out SoV without reckoning. This is a change from the previous calculation.
This distinction is important, because while doing the recalculation I realized that in the previous calculation, I was using 5/5 Reckoning for the SoR/SoB calcluations, and 0/5 Reckoning for the SoV calculations  in other words, a "worstcase scenario" for SoV. I did this because SoV was consistently winning anyway.
With the boost to the SoR glyph, however, this pushed SoR ahead of SoV, but only by a hair. The difference was less than the effect of Reckoning on white swings alone, which made the comparison unfair. In other words, it was OK that we were comparing apples to oranges before, because the apples were beating the oranges even with the heavy handicap  now that they were very close, we have to be much more careful.
Next, let's look at the scaling of all three seals with AP and STR:
As you can see, SoV still scales the best with AP and STR. The order is always SoV > SoR > SoB.
Rotation
Since we're being careful, let's look at the rotation plots again with 5/5 and 0/5 Reckoning.
5/5 Reckoning:
threat graph
Again, with 5/5 Reckoning, SoV is still ahead of SoR, even when optimally glyphed. Just like before, the seal glyph always outperforms the Judgement glyph.
0/5 Reckoning:
threat graph
We see that SoR falls behind even further without Reckoning, as expected. SoR DPS really hinges on getting as many procs as possible, so it suffers without Reckoning.
It's worth reiterating here that if you look at the numbers on these plots, 969 with Vengeance and 0/5 Reckoning performs worse than Righteousness with 5/5 Reckoning, purely due to the boosted white swing damage. However, if you're putting 5/5 in reckoning, you're still better off using JoV.
Talents
Since these graphs will all look pretty much the same, we'll just analyze the 969 graph. I'll link to the other ones, but there's really not much extra to be learned from them. All of these plots assume 5/5 Reckoning
969:
Holy Shield substitution, HSs w/ 3 glpyhs
Exorcism on Cooldown, EoC w/ 3 glpyhs
Judgement Replacement, Judgement Replacement w/ 3 glyphs
The plot clearly shows that SoV tops SoR by around 4050 dps, straight across the board. The old form of the glyph (10%) would drop it down roughly 5060 DPS across the board, placing it tied or behind SoB for all specs except 5/60/6.
TLDR Version
SoV is still superior to SoR and SoB, even with the new glyph, even with reckoning, no matter what. You should be tanking with SoV.
Also worth noting that someone pointed out that I was using 22% weapon damage instead of 27% for SoB, so I fixed that, and this analysis includes LoO and all the more recent changes.
First of all, let's look at the numbers for reckoning again:
Reckoning
First, the base numbers:
 Code: Select all
Seal DPS DPS(R) Diff TPS TPS(R) Diff
SoV 3107 3167 60 7792 7880 88
SoR 3052 3137 85 7677 7836 159
SoB 3025 3105 80 7565 7706 141
Here we notice a subtle difference  SoR with Reckoning now beats out SoV without reckoning. This is a change from the previous calculation.
This distinction is important, because while doing the recalculation I realized that in the previous calculation, I was using 5/5 Reckoning for the SoR/SoB calcluations, and 0/5 Reckoning for the SoV calculations  in other words, a "worstcase scenario" for SoV. I did this because SoV was consistently winning anyway.
With the boost to the SoR glyph, however, this pushed SoR ahead of SoV, but only by a hair. The difference was less than the effect of Reckoning on white swings alone, which made the comparison unfair. In other words, it was OK that we were comparing apples to oranges before, because the apples were beating the oranges even with the heavy handicap  now that they were very close, we have to be much more careful.
Next, let's look at the scaling of all three seals with AP and STR:
As you can see, SoV still scales the best with AP and STR. The order is always SoV > SoR > SoB.
Rotation
Since we're being careful, let's look at the rotation plots again with 5/5 and 0/5 Reckoning.
5/5 Reckoning:
threat graph
Again, with 5/5 Reckoning, SoV is still ahead of SoR, even when optimally glyphed. Just like before, the seal glyph always outperforms the Judgement glyph.
0/5 Reckoning:
threat graph
We see that SoR falls behind even further without Reckoning, as expected. SoR DPS really hinges on getting as many procs as possible, so it suffers without Reckoning.
It's worth reiterating here that if you look at the numbers on these plots, 969 with Vengeance and 0/5 Reckoning performs worse than Righteousness with 5/5 Reckoning, purely due to the boosted white swing damage. However, if you're putting 5/5 in reckoning, you're still better off using JoV.
Talents
Since these graphs will all look pretty much the same, we'll just analyze the 969 graph. I'll link to the other ones, but there's really not much extra to be learned from them. All of these plots assume 5/5 Reckoning
969:
Holy Shield substitution, HSs w/ 3 glpyhs
Exorcism on Cooldown, EoC w/ 3 glpyhs
Judgement Replacement, Judgement Replacement w/ 3 glyphs
The plot clearly shows that SoV tops SoR by around 4050 dps, straight across the board. The old form of the glyph (10%) would drop it down roughly 5060 DPS across the board, placing it tied or behind SoB for all specs except 5/60/6.
TLDR Version
SoV is still superior to SoR and SoB, even with the new glyph, even with reckoning, no matter what. You should be tanking with SoV.
Last edited by theckhd on Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd  Moderator
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yup:
GoSoV is 10 when glyphed and 0 when unglyphed, and as you can see from the graph legends, I don't use the Vengeance glyph for SoR or SoB.
I didn't explicitly state it in this post (though I did in the previous version) for the AP and STR scaling graphs, but those use Judgement/Vengeance for SoV and Judgement/Righteousness for SoR/SoB.
 Code: Select all
expertise=(Base_exp + GoSoV + (Gear_Exp+extra_exp)./exp_rating_to_exp) + ComExp;
GoSoV is 10 when glyphed and 0 when unglyphed, and as you can see from the graph legends, I don't use the Vengeance glyph for SoR or SoB.
I didn't explicitly state it in this post (though I did in the previous version) for the AP and STR scaling graphs, but those use Judgement/Vengeance for SoV and Judgement/Righteousness for SoR/SoB.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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What exactly is the Holy Sheild substitution?... how does that differ from the 969?
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halabar  Posts: 9376
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It just replaces Holy Shield with Exorcism every other cast. This results in a considerable amount of Holy Shield downtime, but there are some bosses that don't melee, and Holy Shield is by far our weakest damage/threat component.
By the way, I cranked out the scaling of the seals with Expertise to find out when the crossover point occurs. Results here. Looks to be at about 185 expertise rating from gear.
By the way, I cranked out the scaling of the seals with Expertise to find out when the crossover point occurs. Results here. Looks to be at about 185 expertise rating from gear.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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Jonesy wrote:I just updated my spreadsheet and I have SoV doing more DPS and SoR doing more TPS. Doublecheck for me please?
(I haven't modelled Reckoning yet, though.)
I haven't found any situation where that's the case. But my default gear set is different from the one you started with. Since everything is coming out pretty close in these comparisons, it's possible that you've found a gear set that gives that sort of result.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
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theckhd  Moderator
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I don't remember if this has been asked and answered before but are you modeling partial resists? Also does the SoV vs SoR modeling also take into account the judements? Also it seems the SoR glyph only affects SoR damage and not it's judgements.
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Majiben wrote:I don't remember if this has been asked and answered before but are you modeling partial resists? Also does the SoV vs SoR modeling also take into account the judements? Also it seems the SoR glyph only affects SoR damage and not it's judgements.
Yes, all of the skills include the "boss_resist_reduce" factor, which accounts for partial resists.
The modeling calculates DPS for the full 969 rotation, which includes the appropriate Judgement. And the glyph bonus is only being applied to SoR, not JoR.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of GrehnSkipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty

theckhd  Moderator
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theckhd wrote:... there are some bosses that don't melee, and Holy Shield is by far our weakest damage/threat component.
Surely that's true for bosses that don't melee, but have you examined the results on a scale of say, faster than Patchwerk to uninterrupted KT in terms of HS contribution to relative stat values? I apologize if this has been examined already, but I wasn't able to find something like this.
I know that on Patchwerk, my HS is often around #2 at 16% of my damage and thus by far the 2nd highest contributor for threat. Brutallus as memory serves placed HS squarely at #1, despite continuing to use other abilities while not the active tank. I wonder if this still would hold true today for a boss attacking at 2 swings / 1.2 sec.
Last edited by PsiVen on Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PsiVen  Moderator
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Those bosses you both brought up are duel wielders the opposite of when you would want to do a holy shield subsitution. By dropping holyshield on those encounters you would increase the damage by a huge margin. The question of whether or not you get more threat is somewhat mute as you would never consider fropping holyshield.
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majiben  Moderator
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I wasn't referencing the dropHS rotation actually, I was referring to the effect on the relative value of stats due to the variable weighting of Holy Shield's scaling.
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