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Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis - WotLK/3.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:47 am

Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:1) Get nekkid (optional, but probably easier this way), equip a mongoose weapon, melee dummy in prot spec until you get a mongoose proc. Observe armor value before and after.
2) Repeat in ret or holy dual-spec.


Step two isn't needed. If you get 264 Armor Toughness affects it, if you get 240 armor it doesn't.

True, but it's always nice to have a control group. What if we find out that you get 290 in either spec? Eerie phantom talent effects! ;)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Shathus » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:21 am

I liked having Mongoose, just feels more fun than say +26 agi. I left it on my current weapon because I don't feel like re-enchanting atm, just stinks since I don't know if the lower uptime is worth it when I get an upgradce. Accuracy for me I guess.

Thanks for the work as always
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby lythac » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:15 pm

theckhd wrote:
Lythac wrote:26 agi gives 57.2 armor with kings.

Mongoose proc gives 264 armor with kings.
Hit/Exp capped 110.9 on average
0 Hit/Exp 89.8 on average.


I included the 10% bonus from Toughness.
120 agi * 1.1 (kings) * 2 (agi->armor) * 1.1 (Toughness) = 290.4 ~ 290
26 * 1.1 * 2 * 1.1 = 62.92 ~ 63

I haven't seen any conclusive testing either way on whether Toughness boosts the armor from agility though (or if I have, I don't remember it). I asked here, but never got an answer.

It should be very easy to check though, as Toughness is our only armor-multiplier talent:
1) Get nekkid (optional, but probably easier this way), equip a mongoose weapon, melee dummy in prot spec until you get a mongoose proc. Observe armor value before and after.
2) Repeat in ret or holy dual-spec.


I have a last laugh with +26agi kicking around -


Code: Select all
5/5 Toughness

         0agi     +26agi
No BoK   16120    16172    52
BoK      16148    16206    58


0/5 Toughness

         0agi     +26agi
No BoK   14682    14734    52
BoK      14710    14768    58
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby towelliee » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:33 pm

Theck so do we in fact now have bosses that parry haste us for more incoming dmg I thought that was done away with in this the last few content patches?

Rather post here as I do not want the angry DK and Warriors to continue to troll the wow tank forums lol

"So before this hotfix, we generated nearly twice as many parry-able attacks as we should, resulting in more boss parries and thus more parry-hasted incoming attacks, but were compensated slightly by the fact that we saw much better uptimes on Mongoose/Berserking/etc (and similarly Ret was seeing much higher proc rates for Byrntoll). "
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:48 pm

Lythac wrote:I have a last laugh with +26agi kicking around -


Code: Select all
5/5 Toughness

         0agi     +26agi
No BoK   16120    16172    52
BoK      16148    16206    58


0/5 Toughness

         0agi     +26agi
No BoK   14682    14734    52
BoK      14710    14768    58

Interesting. So Toughness only counts the inherent armor on items, and doesn't modify the armor granted through Agility. I'll have to go back and check some calculations then - I think that Meloree and I used the extra 10% when working out gemming ratios in the progression MT gearing thread.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:52 pm

towelliee wrote:Theck so do we in fact now have bosses that parry haste us for more incoming dmg I thought that was done away with in this the last few content patches?

Rather post here as I do not want the angry DK and Warriors to continue to troll the wow tank forums lol

"So before this hotfix, we generated nearly twice as many parry-able attacks as we should, resulting in more boss parries and thus more parry-hasted incoming attacks, but were compensated slightly by the fact that we saw much better uptimes on Mongoose/Berserking/etc (and similarly Ret was seeing much higher proc rates for Byrntoll). "

Well, nothing has changed on that front since 3.2 (or whenever SoV became the Ret seal). It's just that we generate more parry-able attacks than any other tank, and thus will see a higher rate of boss parries.

<obligatory>
But we're also awesome and OP so it's probably not a big deal.
</obligatory>

Another part of me wonders if the dev team did this intentionally to balance the fact that our EH is higher than any other tank. I doubt it, since it seems shady and means they'd have been playing coy with the other tanks all this time without giving them good reasoning for the EH difference ("Nah, we think pallies are fine! *nudge nudge*").
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby lythac » Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:59 pm

There is one other thing with armor and toughness, not particually fitting with threat but hey.

Cloak of the Shadowed Sun and Shadow of the Ghoul used.

Code: Select all
               154 armor   490 armor   
0/5 toughness     14626        14962   336
5/5 toughness     16063        16399   336
         
               No cloak    154 armor   
0/5 toughness     14472        14626   154
5/5 toughness     15894        16063   169


Toughness only affects white armor values and cloaks with bonus armor do not gain 10% on what would have been the white armor value. 490 =/= 154*1.1 + 336


Armor on rings does not gain Toughness bonus.


I don't have any plate items with bonus armor so can't say if they function the same way as cloaks. Would be harsh if they do and may change some EH calculations.


Also +2% armor from meta somewhere.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby steadypal » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:55 pm

does toughness not help out the new extra armor sexy badge gear?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:35 pm

Toughness, I imagine, works just like Bear Form and Frost Presence does. Only the base armor of the piece of equipment gets modified, and jewelry is exempt from modification all together.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Meloree » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:51 pm

theckhd wrote:Interesting. So Toughness only counts the inherent armor on items, and doesn't modify the armor granted through Agility. I'll have to go back and check some calculations then - I think that Meloree and I used the extra 10% when working out gemming ratios in the progression MT gearing thread.


It doesn't change very much. The agility gem loses 2 armor, the agility to gloves enchant loses 4. The ratios still end up in the same ballpark. Agil/stam is still a superior EH gem to def/stam, or dodge/stam, or parry/stam. We're talking about a change that's in the low decimal point range. We never included BoK in those calculations, as far as I know. It may or may not change the "agility is 97% as good as dodge" thread, though.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:05 am

Meloree wrote:It doesn't change very much. The agility gem loses 2 armor, the agility to gloves enchant loses 4. The ratios still end up in the same ballpark. Agil/stam is still a superior EH gem to def/stam, or dodge/stam, or parry/stam. We're talking about a change that's in the low decimal point range. We never included BoK in those calculations, as far as I know. It may or may not change the "agility is 97% as good as dodge" thread, though.

Well, an agility gem losing 2 armor out of 22 is still around a 10% nerf to it's EH potential, but I agree that it'll still only account for a minor change in the gem ratios thanks to all the stam kicking around. I'm pretty sure we did include BoK simply because if we hadn't, the ratios wouldn't have been properly representative.

The agility vs. dodge calculation needs to be redone now anyway with Icecrown Radiance - Agility is probably hands-down better now since the damage reduction due to dodge has reduced.

So the appropriate formulas for the enchants are:
120 agi * 1.1 (kings) * 2 (agi->armor) * 1.02 (meta) = 269 armor
26 agi * 1.1 (kings) * 2 (agi->armor) * 1.02 (meta) = 58.34 ~ 58 armor

That's assuming the meta affects agility, which I think is a good one - 26 agi would give 57.2 armor without the extra 1.02, and Lythac's data suggests that 58 is the correct value.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:06 am

steadypal wrote:does toughness not help out the new extra armor sexy badge gear?

Looks like not.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby lythac » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:34 am

When I was looking at +26agi last night I was in ret gear so not having the meta. Reading my previous post I should have written about the +2% meta elsewhere, it was only that I remembered about it then. The 58 armor gain may have been coming from rounding.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Shathus » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:42 am

I have no mathematical proof, but I would imagine the meta does NOT affect armor from agility either.

+32 Stamina and 2% Increased Armor Value from Items
Increases your armor value from items by 10% and reduces the duration of all movement slowing effects by 30%.


Given that Toughness doesn't increase armor, and both are worded the same way, I would imagine them to function the same. Technically the armor from the agility comes from how the stat is processed, not from the item itself. That's my interpretation at least.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Thels » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:05 am

Do we know that the talent and meta apply after each other, for a total of 12.2%, or do they stack, so the bonus is only 12%?
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