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Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis - WotLK/3.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Wrathy » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:27 pm

theckhd wrote:
ArgentSun wrote:Hence the [Advanced] tag :) I don't think new paladins should be using MainTankadin - there are plenty of stickies, both here and there, that go over the basics of tanking.

I wouldn't agree with that at all. The forums here have excellent resources for beginners, both in terms of guides and knowledgeable advice-givers.

I am no where near the most crazed internet surfer and researcher, but I have played three classes during my time in WoW, and have read thousands and thousands of threads in forums, and websites, and this site is by far the most informative, and highest quality site dedicated to a class and role. That one hurt me too, I think that we give a lot of ourselves to contribute to this site and the quality of information that we provide to its users.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Gamingdevil » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:26 pm

Theck, I noticed that apart from the chest, you don't have any expertise on your T10 progression set at all. Doesn't that bother you?

Obviously not much is available in the content (typical blizz, too much expertise in T9 and no hit and the exact opposite in T10), but doesn't that mean we should try to look for it a little bit. T10 pants look good for instance.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Bijou » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:23 pm

Theck, I noticed that apart from the chest, you don't have any expertise on your T10 progression set at all. Doesn't that bother you?


The chest gives you ~10 expertise (83/8.2) then you get +10 from your Vengeance Glyph and +6 from your spec (and if you are a human with a mace / sword extra 3)
There you got your 26 expertise.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:37 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:Theck, I noticed that apart from the chest, you don't have any expertise on your T10 progression set at all. Doesn't that bother you?

Obviously not much is available in the content (typical blizz, too much expertise in T9 and no hit and the exact opposite in T10), but doesn't that mean we should try to look for it a little bit. T10 pants look good for instance.


Well, keep in mind that my "T10 Progression Set" is by no means a best-in-slot list. It's not optimized in any way, I just picked a bunch of ilvl 264 pieces that looked good and were reasonably available.

The point was to get a baseline estimate of what stats a tank of that gear level would expect to have. Strength is the primary thing we're looking for here, as your STR level is indicative of what threat output you're capable of, and won't vary too much from gear set to gear set.

For the calculations that involve hit and expertise, I artificially set the amount of hit and expertise from gear to zero anyway so we get a clear picture of its worth. This has pros and cons, some of which I've discussed in the individual calculation posts. But I think it gives more consistent results this way, and still leaves room for smart tanks to min-max on a smaller level (like adjusting gear around their weapon's expertise, for example).

In short, if you're looking for an optimized T10 gear set, you should be looking at the gear forum, not this thread.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby nastaran » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:14 pm

Theck, can you add http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50046 to your weapon tps list? From the Quel'Delar chain. Its unique in that its a 2.7 instead of 2.6 speed
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Shaera » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:55 am

This is a crazy question and apologies if its in the wrong place.

Just wondering from the PoV of meta gems, what is our best one with regards to the DPS/TPS.
The BV meta would be decent as long as you are not getting past the cap, but both the chaotic skyflare and the relentless earthsiege would be quite good as well.

I am not talking about actually using these for progressive raids, just for fun in heroics and farm raids.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:41 am

nastaran wrote:Theck, can you add http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50046 to your weapon tps list? From the Quel'Delar chain. Its unique in that its a 2.7 instead of 2.6 speed

It's already on there. Take a look at the Weapon Analysis, it's in the plot that contains the slow DPS weapons, and clocks in a little ahead of the Relentless Gladiator's Longblade.

Shaera wrote:Just wondering from the PoV of meta gems, what is our best one with regards to the DPS/TPS.
The BV meta would be decent as long as you are not getting past the cap, but both the chaotic skyflare and the relentless earthsiege would be quite good as well.

Good question, and one I haven't really thought about. My guess would be that Chaotic Skyflare would be better than the BV meta even if you were below the DR region. If I get some time I'll try and do a quick check early next week.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Iselian » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:56 am

theckhd wrote:Test #1: Libram of Defiance
My model that predicts 98% uptime assumes that the buff can trigger off of any HotR cast, regardless of whether it is successful. However, I haven't seen any test showing that the thing procs off of missed HotR's. It should, since the item text says "every time you use your HotR[/b]. But people have reported uptimes of around 85%, which would agree better with a model where unsuccessful HotR's don't proc the buff.

To test this:
1. Strip down to a weapon (preferably one with no hit, a white vendor weapon would be the best) and the libram.
2. Cast HotR on a training dummy until you see the buff proc off of missed/parried/deflected HotR. Stop once you've got 5-10 or so examples of such an event, or if you go 30 minutes without seeing a single buff proc off of an unsuccessful HotR (unlikely).
3. Upload the combat log text file to this thread so that we can confirm the result.


I did this one awhile back, though my combat log halfway borked. I did get some "succesful" deflect/dodge/misses that resulted in evasion. First, at [02:47:09.861], second at [02:47:32.152], last at [02:49:52.056]. Log to be browsed can be found here.



theckhd wrote:Test #3: Blade Ward - haste normalization
Presumably, Blade Ward works exactly like Berserking and Mongoose - base PPM of 1, and not normalized with haste (i.e. haste will increase the effective uptime). But as far as I know there hasn't been a thorough test of this issue.

To test this:
1. Ideally, you'd need two gear sets - one with lots of haste, and one without. Having windfury available would help as well. The two sets should be roughly the same as far as hit and expertise (don't forget to include the shaman buff). If you can get hit-capped and expertise soft-capped in both sets, and attack from behind, that would be perfect. Alternatively, if you can build a set with high haste but absolutely no hit or expertise, you could do one test naked and one test with the haste set.
2. In the "low-haste" set, melee the dummy for about 30 minutes. Then put on the "high-haste" set and repeat.
3. Upload the results.


First, non-hasted set found here. After about 20 minutes, there were 20 procs. Speed of about 1.6 (used Shiver).

Second, hasted set can be found here. I had roughly 170 haste rating and an improved windfury from an enhancement shaman (horde, no hit buff, didn't need it). Speed of about 1.25 (still used Shiver). Ignore the random hunter in the log, someone else decided to bum the dummy for a bit.

If more testing is needed, let me know. I was a little short on time this round, but could probably find an hour per next week.


theckhd wrote:Test #4: Libram of Defiance - internal cooldown
We expect that the LoD internal cooldown is 10 seconds, since that's what Nadir reported from his initial testing. But it would still be good to see a combat log parse of this for confirmation.

To test this:
1. Cast HotR, then wait about 12 seconds (or until there's 6 seconds left on the buff) and cast again. Do this a few times, ideally until you get 5 successful examples of the buff refreshing.
2. Now we reduce the time by a second. Wait for the buff to drop off, and then repeat step #1 using 11 seconds (or 7 seconds left on the buff).
3. Repeat step #1 for 10 seconds (8 seconds left on buff). This step might take a little longer if 10s is the internal cooldown, since due to latency and reaction time the libram may still be on ICD for some tests.
4. Repeat step #1 for 9 seconds (9 seconds left on buff). If the ICD is 10, this should never refresh the buff. So get roughly 20 or 30 examples of this just to make sure. If you don't see a single refreshed buff in 20-30 tests, then the ICD is larger than 9 seconds and you're done. If you do see a refreshed buff, keep reducing the time between casts until you don't.


On my to-do list, should get knocked out this weekend.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:51 pm

I just noticed something in my screenshots of ShoR testing - we're getting 2 procs of SoCom per ShoR, one presumably due to the Vindication proc. Strangely, SoV only seems to get one proc per ShoR. I'd like to do some more testing this weekend to confirm this, but provided it's correct, it makes SoCom even better for AoE tanking. I'll update the model early this week, though I don't think anything will change that appreciably.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Kihra » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:00 pm

theckhd wrote:I just noticed something in my screenshots of ShoR testing - we're getting 2 procs of SoCom per ShoR, one presumably due to the Vindication proc. Strangely, SoV only seems to get one proc per ShoR. I'd like to do some more testing this weekend to confirm this, but provided it's correct, it makes SoCom even better for AoE tanking. I'll update the model early this week, though I don't think anything will change that appreciably.


I don't see any evidence of this in simple target dummy testing (or after a cursory glance at combat logs). Are you sure?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:30 am

http://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/im ... c_proc.jpg

I tested it again in-game to verify it. The only thing I did was ShoR a dummy while facing away enough that I couldn't melee it.

I suppose it's possible that I'm cleaving to the other dummy though, I'll have to go back and check that. I thought they were far enough apart, but perhaps not.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Kihra » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:49 am

theckhd wrote:http://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/images/shor_soc_proc.jpg

I tested it again in-game to verify it. The only thing I did was ShoR a dummy while facing away enough that I couldn't melee it.

I suppose it's possible that I'm cleaving to the other dummy though, I'll have to go back and check that. I thought they were far enough apart, but perhaps not.


I think you're just cleaving to the other dummy. The two target dummies are definitely close enough to each other to both be hit by Seal of Command, since that's how I was testing.

The way I tested was to just face both dummies and do ShoR every six seconds while meleeing for a long time. I did it long enough to clearly see examples of ShoR refreshing Vindication.

At the end of the test if I looked at melee hits + ShoR hits, I had exactly 2x that number of Seals of Command (since Seal of Command was hitting both dummies).

SoComm doesn't care about facing. It's like a "bounce" I think from the primary target to 2 nearby targets that can be completely behind you. Turn and face the dummies and you should see the scrolling combat text properly appear above the second dummy. :)
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:58 am

Kihra wrote:SoComm doesn't care about facing. It's like a "bounce" I think from the primary target to 2 nearby targets that can be completely behind you. Turn and face the dummies and you should see the scrolling combat text properly appear above the second dummy. :)

Yeah, I was aware it could hit things behind you. I don't use the in-game combat text, which is likely why I didn't notice it was hitting the second dummy. I hadn't realized the cleave range was quite that large.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Shathus » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:46 am

For the sake of asking, with the popularity and changes to SoComm, does Libram of Divine Judgement do anything worthwhile for us?

Generally I've just been putting on the 450 BV libram when using SoComm since the str libram won't proc with that seal. But I'd imagine people are getting close to, if not passing the point of DR with block in these threat/heroic sets anyways and the 100 AP could be useful? I played with it some and like the comments on wowhead indicate, it seems to be around a 50% proc rate.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Wrathy » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:52 am

I actually use the Badge libram from the T7 vendor, Libram of Reciprocation, which gives 173 crit for 10 seconds every now and then.
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