Threat, mitigation/avoidance a few questions I have

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Threat, mitigation/avoidance a few questions I have

Postby Akonda » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:36 pm

First of all, let me say I love this website. It is so nice to see a more focused collection of "scientific tankadins" without the "nerf pallys", "ret sucks" "buff this nerf that" posts in the WoW forums.

Anyway, since this is my first post I'd like to take a moment to introduce myself. I'm currently 38/23 but I switch to 49/12 occaisionally, I can't decide which I like better. The extent of my personal raid progress is SSC full clear, Gruul, Mag, kara full clear, and 3/4 TK we're wiping on Kael now.

I'm the only prot pally in my guild. Like most guilds that don't understand that paladins can actually tank, I've got disbelievers, and raid leaders that constantly assign me to trash/add duty. Consequently I've gotten really good with murlocs, A'lar adds, Hunter @ Karathress and HKMG's Seer.

My problem is that is ALL i do. I want more, I strive to show my guild that I can do the dirty boss tanking work, and that I'm willing to better myself, if necessary, to obtain these goals. The only boss (not counting KZ) I've ever MT'd is Gruul. I know the fights, I've done SSC and TK for 6 months now.

So first, I was hoping a few of the regulars here could give my gear a look over and tell me what you think. (I apologize if my raid tanking gear isn't on, but its AV weekend :).

1. Avoidance- I don't often see prot pallies, but when I do, my avoidance is usually higher, but my block rating is lower. Is this a problem for hard hitting bosses?

2. Stamina- My guild's MT is actually a druid. I can't compete with his stamina, AT ALL. Nor the tauren warriors in my guild. In my old guild, there is still a tauren warrior with mixed bold, heroic blues, and a few kara epics that still has 2k more HP than me. I've stacked 12 stam in every gem slot I have, and I still don't feel like the stamina is there. The only two significant stamina upgrades I am still considering is Belt of the Protector (pattern hasn't dropped for our BS's yet) and Gruul's Shield. Can also do Glad's SW since as you'll see from my armory profile I don't need a +def etc etc shield to be uncrushable.

3. Mitigation- Again, currently I am 38/23 so I use sanc aura...alot to tank. Void Reaver, all my current OT/Add/trash responsibilities, I love the threat generation.

3a.But with regard to MTing a boss do I really need this much (480 spell dmg and sanc aura etc?).

3b. My block value is a whopping 335. Is this something that HAS to change to be able to MT bosses?

3c. My raid leader has refered to me as squishy compared to the other tanks in my guild...and I simply don't get it.


4. Avoidance ---> Block Rating.
I have read several posts here that lead toward being able to stack stamina by replacing the higher item values of avoidance and subbing for block RATING. (Figurine of the Colossus for example). But Im looking for other examples, because I can't see myself justifying replacing my DMC: Vengeance (51 stam) for 4% bock when Im already uncrushable with the DMC card. I would love to see some examples of key pieces of gear, enchants, and gems (minors) to fix this.

Again I appreciate any and all, partial, w/e input you guys might have.
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Postby Oranniv » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:55 pm

Could you provide a link to your armory profile please? I'm lazy atm and don't want to search ;)

What a lot of experienced prot paladins will probably tell you is that we don't have one gear set. IMHO, having lots of block rating is fine when aoe tanking lots of mobs that eat up your holy shield charges. Other than that, for single target tanking I prefer to manipulate my gear towards pure stam/armor while maintaining uncrusability. I lean more towards dodge than block rating because excess block rating falls off the end of the combat table.

I've heard similar things about the "squishiness" you speak of. This is merely their observance of the difference in the three different tanks avoidance.

Since you've done a full ssc clear, perhaps asking pre/post raid if the option is there to try you out tanking other farm content (leotheras for instance).

Avenger's shield is mandatory in my opinion for initial hate building.
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Postby Akonda » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:38 pm

Im sorry, I was under the mistaken impression that the banner that everyone has was an armory link.

Here is my armory profile.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodscalp&n=Akonda

I understand that block value is important for AoE tanking. Thats actually one area I have lots of experience with, pre BT/Hyjal of course. I understand that stamina is the biggest concern for bosses and I'm looking for ideas on how to get more, other than:

Switching my shitty ele shaman shield with the shield from Gruul.
Switching my belt to the belt of the Protector (which I don't have access to yet)
Possibly using a t5 leg token if Wrynn Dynasty Greaves are that terrible. (I've gotten in the habbit of holding on to tokens because I'm not so sure tanking will be my future at the rate my guild is using me. Its the reason I'm here asking ?'s.
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Postby Oranniv » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:14 pm

Whoever said Wrynn Dynasty Greaves are "that terrible" is on crack.

As for gemming to get parry and parry bonuses, I feel it's a waste of itemization to seek out. I'd recommend changing your spell damage trinket to a tanking trinket like dawnstone crab, and replacing the parry gems for either dodge/stam or pure +12 stam (preferred).

As to sheilds, there is also the exalted tk shield, nightbane shield, and mercilous gladiators.

As to why I'm holy atm, we were learning Vashj tonight.

Overall, I think this thread should probably be moved to the gear section at this point.
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Postby Akonda » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:38 pm

Gear section? Yes and no. Heres why.

I MT'd Gruul for the second time ever tonight, while I was waiting for your second response to my post.

I died @ about 15% I can't remember how many grows. My OT was our guild bear tank, who saved the day while a few melee died to hateful strikes. We didn't wipe but when I was dead I noticed, he had similar HP (I flasked and he didn't, I used stam food and he didnt. He said he had 18k HP, I know I had 17362. Raid buffed.

He tells me he has 60% dodge (raid buffed) GoA, MoTW, Kings, Agil bonus in bear form from gear, etc etc.

Then he tells me he has 32k armor. Again, I believe him, because his armory shows 8k in "cow" form. He said its 75% raw damage reduction from armor. I sit at 60.5.

So I scratch my head. And something pops in my brain that is very disturbing:

"If he has 20% more avoidance than me, 1-3k more HP than me, and 14% more base mitigation than me (roughly 1/3 RAW damage reduced than mine)....who in their right mind wouild use a paladin to tank bosses?

I know druids and paladins are apples and oranges. I know paladins are supposedly suited to tank some things and druids arent. But for this kind of comparison I can't see why I would be wanted to tank anything that hits hard.


Thats why I put this in the "training" section...because I feel like after all the work I've done to get my gear thus far, I feel like I missed the boat somewhere on what I'm SUPPOSED to be doing gear wise. I didn't spec prot to tank trash, adds and kill rogues. (Rogues in PvE while grinding lvls, I did...but thats beside the point :)

For questions that I still have regarding my gear, I have made a second post in the "gear" forum. My apologies if this is in the wrong place, and for my long-winded post.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:58 am

Don't mind too much about the bears, Gruul and Maulgar are particular bosses that actually may probably be better tanked by a bear for their way of dealing damages (slow really hard hits), but luckily its only related to those 2 bosses.
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Postby Tranzity » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:21 am

There is no Belt of the Protector, do you mean
Boots of the Protector - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30033
Belt of the Guardian - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30034 ?
Ah, and don't compare paladins to druids.
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Postby Akonda » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:26 am

that belt...yes.
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Postby Afraithe » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:30 am

He might have more HP and Avoidance than you, but he WILL eat crushings, thus taking similar damage.

Different tanks are good for different bosses, if you have a fast hitting boss, where a Warrior will take crushings (like Prince, or Tidewalker) a Paladin (On Prince) or Druid (On Tidewalker) is slightly better, cause a Paladin will not eat crushings, and a Druid will eat crushings, but they will do lower damage (due to more armor). You have to compare gear and skills to, a better geared tank will always be better than a worse geared tank ofc :)

I MT Gruul on the other day (my first time), it got really though the last few percent, took him down on 11th growth (iirc), I would say Ardent defender saved me 3-4 times in that fight, a long with dodge trinket.
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Postby Akonda » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:25 am

Afraithe wrote:He might have more HP and Avoidance than you, but he WILL eat crushings, thus taking similar damage.


Right. So on a hard hitting boss, why would you want a crushable tank?

I mean I'll flask for every encounter, farm or not, if it means I get to be there, and not standing in Shat and watching TV all night. I want to make myself as useful as the other tanks in my guild. And as per my other post in the gear forums, stamina is the key currently.

My next question is the bosses themselves. I've heard MANY references to pallies tanking Leo, but I want to get a feel for what pallies are normally good (rephrase: OPTIMAL) for tanking. Not every boss in the game, just the SSC/TK encounters.
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Postby Vesper » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:49 am

Akonda wrote:
Afraithe wrote:He might have more HP and Avoidance than you, but he WILL eat crushings, thus taking similar damage.


Right. So on a hard hitting boss, why would you want a crushable tank?


Generally speaking, survival on hard-hitting bosses equates to the amount of spike damage a tank is able to take and survive. The MT is often being spam overhealed on those encounters no matter what class they are (i.e. reactive healing isn't an option). A druid will eat crushing blows 15% of the time, sure, but it's a predictable 15%, and due to high ac/hp, it's not as big of a deal as it would be if a crushing blow connected on a warrior/paladin. For some fights, it's not about taking less damage; it's about being able to take more damage.

Am I arguing a druid should MT Gruul? Nope! Just trying to explain why a "crushable" tank can surprisingly be a viable option.
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