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Passive Block Cap

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:13 pm

I came up with a set that had:
593 def skill (how much miss is this?)
28.69 dodge
19.5 parry
44.62 block

I assumed JC + BS to get the most defense from the professions.
I assumed def+agi elixirs, agi food, Kings, Mark, and Horn/SoE.

I need to track down the def->miss numbers, but assuming chardev understands the DR on stats properly (I have no idea), that'd be 92.81% plus miss. If 593 def is worth 10% total miss, it's covered. The only buff I don't like in there is Horn/SoE, since it requires another person to be right there to keep it going. Without that agi boost (and it's huge), it looks like about 26.49% dodge, so that much def would need to be 12% miss total, which I doubt it is.

http://www.chardev.org/?template=132382

-- Oh, and the weights I used were:
Block rating: 61.01
Def: 32.52
Dodge: 25.41
Agi: 22
Parry: 20.33

Basically what I did was took the rating per 1% and divided it into 1000 to get reasonably-sized numbers. Of course that's pre-DR...

-- Sorry I'm a little late posting this, but at least I didn't start a new thread, I guess. Looks like the differences between my profile and Fuzzy's are the Sandworn vs the Tirisfalen ring, and the Terrace Defense boots give more def/BR even though they're blue. Otherwise it's the same down to the BS sockets and JC prismatics. Ah well.

-- It looks like the miss DR is brutal, so I guess we're going to have to say that no, it's not quite possible yet... until we get 1 or maybe 2 more BR pieces available.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:38 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:I need to track down the def->miss numbers, but assuming chardev understands the DR on stats properly (I have no idea),


If you mouseover the number after "defense" it'll show you the breakdown of percentages, including Miss.

As far as I can tell chardev does not include DR on anything. When I load my armory page, it shows the same stats I see on my char page -- and the char page has the "before diminishing returns" caveat, so ...

Your set would appear to be at 105.53% before DR.

This is better than my set, which was at 105.09% before DR, when including all the buffs.

Our sets are almost identical, except for one ring (SRotT vs SWB) and boots (Terrace Defence vs Inexor)

Swapping in the boots raises it to 105.88%

Of course, part of this challenge was to be self-buffed only, so removing everything except kings, food, and elixirs brings it to

http://www.chardev.org/?template=132396
Defense 585
Dodge 24.97
Parry 18.4
Block 47.29
Def Miss 7.4
Base Miss 5.00

103.06% before DR, or 102.66 before DR without Kings.

So, still not quite there yet.

This set on a warrior, however, is well above passive block cap, due to their 5% add'l block rating (talented) and gun slot -- none of the gear in this set is paladin specific.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:32 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:I need to track down the def->miss numbers, but assuming chardev understands the DR on stats properly (I have no idea),


If you mouseover the number after "defense" it'll show you the breakdown of percentages, including Miss.

As far as I can tell chardev does not include DR on anything. When I load my armory page, it shows the same stats I see on my char page -- and the char page has the "before diminishing returns" caveat, so ...


Actually I think your "final %" numbers on the character sheet are accurate. It's just the contribution from rating(/agi) during the mouseover that's before DR. Or I misunderstand what you're saying... but if chardev loads in and matches the armory, then it probably is taking DR into account, at least for dodge/parry.

Of course, part of this challenge was to be self-buffed only, so removing everything except kings, food, and elixirs brings it to


Sorry, I joined late and skipped to the end. :)

I thought 540 def was somewhere in the 9.X% miss chance after DR... definitely higher than the def rating contribution of 7.X%. I'm with you on being skeptical of the very final numbers, though, since they're just now finally all (miss) becoming available.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:35 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:Actually I think your "final %" numbers on the character sheet are accurate. It's just the contribution from rating(/agi) during the mouseover that's before DR. Or I misunderstand what you're saying... but if chardev loads in and matches the armory, then it probably is taking DR into account, at least for dodge/parry.


It's the disclaimer from the tooltip that concerns me.

Image

The numbers from imported profile on chardev match this char screen; the gray text makes me think Blizz isn't displaying DR'ed values on the character screen, either.

Given how much calculating I've been doing lately, I'm kind of wanting to build my own tool to include DR. There's this post on EJ about DR that I need to parse through.
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Postby Doloth » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:35 am

fuzzygeek wrote:The numbers from imported profile on chardev match this char screen; the gray text makes me think Blizz isn't displaying DR'ed values on the character screen, either.

Given how much calculating I've been doing lately, I'm kind of wanting to build my own tool to include DR. There's this post on EJ about DR that I need to parse through.


I read about this, and I was pretty sure on these boards. The final dodge chance, in your screenshot it is 22.01%, is accurate and including diminishing returns. Same with parry. It is the yellow text, how it stats that your 248 dodge rating is adding 6.3% dodge, is what is before diminishing returns.

Disclaimer: What lies below is napkin math, and while it makes sense to me, I may have messed up horribly due to some misconceptions, so feel free to show me where I am wrong :P.

To elaborate, I have 540 defense, which adds (before diminishing returns, I know) 5.6% dodge. Then I have 5% base dodge, plus 5% from talents, then a further 6.38% from dodge rating. This 6.38 is also before diminishing returns. Finally, my agility adds 5.42% on top of that, bringing my total theoretical dodge to 27.8%.

Unfortunately, my actual dodge is only 21.29%. That leaves a 6.51% difference. Part of that difference is from the diminishing returns of defense rating. While it says 5.6, it is only giving 4.11. That brings us to a difference of 5.02%. I can only conclude that this must be accounted for by the diminishing returns of dodge rating and agility.

Regardless of how correct my math is, I am confident that the displayed total dodge percentage is accurate and including diminishing returns, even if the yellow text under it is not.
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Postby elfjorc » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:36 am

Yep, the %'s for Dodge and Parry are after diminishing returns.

Unfortunately, the amount for miss after diminishing returns don't display on the character screen, only the amount that defense rating adds before dim returns.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:25 am

Ah, ok. Well, then, the only thing is DR applied to defense miss, which the macro accounts for
Code: Select all
/script dr=function(x)return 1/(1/16+0.9560/x)end;DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962))


Which is trivial to implement.
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Postby Petersen » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:53 am

fuzzygeek wrote:http://www.chardev.org/?template=132396
Defense 585
Dodge 24.97
Parry 18.4
Block 47.29
Def Miss 7.4
Base Miss 5.00

103.06% before DR, or 102.66 before DR without Kings.

So, still not quite there yet.

This set on a warrior, however, is well above passive block cap, due to their 5% add'l block rating (talented) and gun slot -- none of the gear in this set is paladin specific.



What if you use Figurine of the Colossus instead of Repelling Charge?
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:11 am

Petersen wrote:What if you use Figurine of the Colossus instead of Repelling Charge?


Figurine is -0.4% DPBM compared to the Charge at L80.
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Postby Lumenactio » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:40 pm

I have a set around 90%. It's all block. I've not bothered gemming it for Defense/dodge/parry atm. I imagine I could squeak a bit more out of it. Still 10% off atm.

With Kings and some totems and perhaps potted I could hit 98% or so? Something like that. But solo it's around 90%.
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Re: Passive Block Cap

Postby Marrus » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:35 am

It looks like it should be possible once 3.2 comes around (or very nearly so).

I used Majiben's weights on Loot Rank to come up with this profile.

The total avoidance plus block is 100.31 (not considering DR on miss, so actually slightly less). The profile isn't using any 3.2 gear (since Chardev doesn't have it). With that gear, the profile would most likely hit 102.4, or come very close.

By the time 3.3 or 3.4 comes around, it may actually be possible without all of the requirements implicit in this profile. (I. E., blacksmithing, jewelcrafting. defense gems everywhere, etc.)
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Re: Passive Block Cap

Postby lythac » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:59 am

Marrus wrote:The total avoidance plus block is 100.31 (not considering DR on miss, so actually slightly less).


You have missed 5% boss miss chance, its 105.31 before DR on miss, 102.43 after.

For 3.1 we have to change the gemming as you have 13 +20def gems in the set (-52def). Also there is a +16agi to boots enchant (+4), change head enchant (-4def +17 dodge) and missing +12def on bracers. This drops it below passive block cap.

There is a problem with just using stat weightings and taking the highest one, avoidance suffers from DR where as block does not, so it undervalues def slightly and block majorly. With this in mind the bracers you have chosen and 2nd trinket aren't the best for passive block cap, Bindings of the Hapless Prey and Figurine of the Colossus are both better.

I made those changes in this profile and you'll be happy to know it comes out to 102.57, so passive block cap is possible atm (596def gives an additional 5.72 chance to be missed).
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Re: Passive Block Cap

Postby Marrus » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:40 pm

Thanks for correcting my hasty oversights. :-)

It's good to know that it's possible know (in theory if not realistically, since we're unlikely to see anyone loading defense gems and sub par enchantments on their currently best in slot tanking gear.)
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